Pyramiding

[Dharam]

Hello guys..
I know that this is a debatable question and is very frequent in the tortoise keeping community but I want to know whether if Indian star tortoise are really prone to natural pyramiding?

Like all that I have seen have some pyramiding in them so I am really confused for my females..

Plus the one which eats more is having more pyramiding but still shows no problem and is active.

I would like if some members can post their tortoise pics of mature Ind. star females so I can compare mine...

They get access to direct sunlight 3 hours in a day and are happy to bask in it..

First image is of elder female over 1 kg, second the smaller female at 725gms, third is of both soaking for comparison.

Thankyou in advance.

 

[Dan]

Both look to have mild pyramiding which began awhile back and has been improving since. Nice elegans

 

[wellington]

@Tom @Markw84 might be able to help.
All I can say is I don't think I have ever seen one that wasn't pyramided. Not sure if it's from its care or if it's what they do.
Either way, yours are still beautiful.

 

[seanang168]

Hey @Dharam your soaking containers look small, they do like to splash about when soaking. Why not upgrade their pool to a bigger one?

 

[Neal]

Hello guys..
I know that this is a debatable question and is very frequent in the tortoise keeping community but I want to know whether if Indian star tortoise are really prone to natural pyramiding?

Like all that I have seen have some pyramiding in them so I am really confused for my females..

Plus the one which eats more is having more pyramiding but still shows no problem and is active.

I would like if some members can post their tortoise pics of mature Ind. star females so I can compare mine...

They get access to direct sunlight 3 hours in a day and are happy to bask in it..

First image is of elder female over 1 kg, second the smaller female at 725gms, third is of both soaking for comparison.
View attachment 215783 View attachment 215784 View attachment 215785
Thankyou in advance.

In my experience, mainland stars are generally not prone to pyramiding. Not in the same way as some variants from Sri Lanka or some leopard tortoises. There are certainly exceptions.

I have precious few pictures of any that I have raised. I hope this works, but I've tried to attach pictures of two males I raised. Both grew very smoothly.



I know you were asking for pictures of females, but all the pictures of females I have are on Photobucket, and I can't share those for the time being. I currently do not possess any females I have raised or that do not have any pyramiding.

Your tortoises are very nice looking. The pyramiding is not bad on them at all.

 

[Dharam]

Both look to have mild pyramiding which began awhile back and has been improving since. Nice elegans

Ty Dan..!!

 

[Dharam]

@Tom @Markw84 might be able to help.
All I can say is I don't think I have ever seen one that wasn't pyramided. Not sure if it's from its care or if it's what they do.
Either way, yours are still beautiful.

Ty..!!!
Their pyramiding is growing i guess so I got a bit concerned..

 

[Dharam]

Hey @Dharam your soaking containers look small, they do like to splash about when soaking. Why not upgrade their pool to a bigger one?

Actually Right now I am studying and cant give them one...
But nice Idea I will definitely give them the best enclosure once I start earning..!!!
Thnx for the suggestion..!!!!

 

[Dharam]

In my experience, mainland stars are generally not prone to pyramiding. Not in the same way as some variants from Sri Lanka or some leopard tortoises. There are certainly exceptions.

I have precious few pictures of any that I have raised. I hope this works, but I've tried to attach pictures of two males I raised. Both grew very smoothly.

View attachment 216167 View attachment 216168

I know you were asking for pictures of females, but all the pictures of females I have are on Photobucket, and I can't share those for the time being. I currently do not possess any females I have raised or that do not have any pyramiding.

Your tortoises are very nice looking. The pyramiding is not bad on them at all.

Wow your males are beautiful..!!!
No problem I understand you guys take time to give amateurs like me the proper guidance for a healthy tortoise..
I am aiming for a proper shell on this two angels of mine.
Can you give me suggestions for a proper shell now...
Like to prevent its pyramiding...
Thnx for the cmnt..!!

 

[Neal]

Where are you at in the world?

Your tortoises are probably nearly full grown, if not already, so there's not much I could recommend that would have any sort of impact on their shells at this point. I should emphasize that the pyramiding on yours is not "bad" at all. I mean, it's there obviously, but the tortoises' shell shape is uniformly domed and the pyramiding is not excessive as you would see in some captive bred specimens.

Provide them with a good diet, keep them well hydrated and provide them with an enclosure that is not bone dry and they should be set for a good life.

 

[Dharam]

Where are you at in the world?

Your tortoises are probably nearly full grown, if not already, so there's not much I could recommend that would have any sort of impact on their shells at this point. I should emphasize that the pyramiding on yours is not "bad" at all. I mean, it's there obviously, but the tortoises' shell shape is uniformly domed and the pyramiding is not excessive as you would see in some captive bred specimens.

Provide them with a good diet, keep them well hydrated and provide them with an enclosure that is not bone dry and they should be set for a good life.

Well I live in India..!!
Their enclosure gets moisten with water every morning and then it gets dry in afternoon with sun coming for two hours daily..
They have a hideout in their enclosure..
Lately they have started scaling the stairs and other obstacles...
They get bottle gourd, lady finger and occasional leaves and hibiscus
Thnx for your cmnt...

 

[Markw84]

Hello guys..
I know that this is a debatable question and is very frequent in the tortoise keeping community but I want to know whether if Indian star tortoise are really prone to natural pyramiding?

Like all that I have seen have some pyramiding in them so I am really confused for my females..

Plus the one which eats more is having more pyramiding but still shows no problem and is active.

I would like if some members can post their tortoise pics of mature Ind. star females so I can compare mine...

They get access to direct sunlight 3 hours in a day and are happy to bask in it..

First image is of elder female over 1 kg, second the smaller female at 725gms, third is of both soaking for comparison.
View attachment 215783 View attachment 215784 View attachment 215785
Thankyou in advance.

@Dharam I looked back and saw your original question, and will offer my comments.

First, I understand there may be a bit of a translation issue in trying to understand your question. I believe most tortoises, and especially stars, leopards, sulcatas, redfoot are definitely "prone" to pyramiding. However, the use of "natural pyramiding" changes the question.

These tortoise grow in a manner that subjects the new keratin, that grows from the seams of a tortoise's scute, to be susceptible to drying out excessively. IF that occurs, the tortoise will pyramid.

Does that happen "naturally". Not if the "natural" conditions the tortoise is growing in is "normal". But what is normal? There are natural and substantial variations in climate and food availability year to year. In addition, these tortoises, with the exception of sulcatas, live in a natural range that for 100's of years now has changed substantially. They are now exposed to - because of the expansion of agriculture, in some cases reservoirs - where they will now "in the wild" have access to richer foods throughout parts of the year where they would not have "naturally" had access to nutritional foods. Whether its the flooding of rainforest from the seasonal rains, or the monsoon seasons of the savannahs, tortoises "naturally" only thrive and grow in the wetter times of the year, which in a nice matching from nature, is the only times the rich, nutritional foods grow. As conditions dry out, the foods also die off leaving forage that will barely sustain the tortoise, and the tortoise virtually stop growing until the rains and foliage return. Anything that breaks that cycle can and most likely will cause the tortoise to begin to pyramid.

That is why we see more and more pyramided star tortoises "in the wild" the past 100 years and more. Through agriculrural expansion, they can find nutritional foods that would not "naturally" be there in the drier times. They are still growing in those cases through those dryier times, and we new see pyramided "wild" tortoises. You see tortoises that are kept in backyards or colonies where collected for later sale. There they are fed through drier times. They are semi-captive, but in their "natural range", and yes they will pyramid.

A big factor in seeing how this assessment is true is looking at sulcatas. They can become grossly pyramided, they are so "prone" to it. Yet you will not find a wild sulcata with any pyramiding. That is because there has been no agricultural expansion in the Sahel - their natural range. The land is not suited for agriculture and herding animals is the expansion that has occurred instead. So there has been no change to the availability of nutritional foods in the drier seasons, and we see no pyramided "wild" sulcatas to this day. You will certainly see pyramided semi-captive sulcatas as with the other species when that occurs.

So, that leads us to why your tortoises have pyramided. Food availability and growth in drier conditions. Even though you are located in their "natural range" as we have seen, all these tortoises come from areas where some times of the year are not conducive to "natural" growth. So if we continue to feed in those seasons, or place them on unnatural surfaces or enclosures that dry much more than "natural conditions" would - we will see the tortoise pyramid. So in captivity, we are left with a choice - continue to feed the tortoise and allow it to grow. Then we must also duplicate the monsoon season and keep the new growth from drying "unnaturally". If we want to provide a more "natural" environment and allow some of the year to be a drier, non-monsoonal type condition, then we must stop feeding as much and slow growth to a virtual stop during those times, or you will have a pyramided tortoise.

 

[Dharam]

@Dharam I looked back and saw your original question, and will offer my comments.

First, I understand there may be a bit of a translation issue in trying to understand your question. I believe most tortoises, and especially stars, leopards, sulcatas, redfoot are definitely "prone" to pyramiding. However, the use of "natural pyramiding" changes the question.

These tortoise grow in a manner that subjects the new keratin, that grows from the seams of a tortoise's scute, to be susceptible to drying out excessively. IF that occurs, the tortoise will pyramid.

Does that happen "naturally". Not if the "natural" conditions the tortoise is growing in is "normal". But what is normal? There are natural and substantial variations in climate and food availability year to year. In addition, these tortoises, with the exception of sulcatas, live in a natural range that for 100's of years now has changed substantially. They are now exposed to - because of the expansion of agriculture, in some cases reservoirs - where they will now "in the wild" have access to richer foods throughout parts of the year where they would not have "naturally" had access to nutritional foods. Whether its the flooding of rainforest from the seasonal rains, or the monsoon seasons of the savannahs, tortoises "naturally" only thrive and grow in the wetter times of the year, which in a nice matching from nature, is the only times the rich, nutritional foods grow. As conditions dry out, the foods also die off leaving forage that will barely sustain the tortoise, and the tortoise virtually stop growing until the rains and foliage return. Anything that breaks that cycle can and most likely will cause the tortoise to begin to pyramid.

That is why we see more and more pyramided star tortoises "in the wild" the past 100 years and more. Through agriculrural expansion, they can find nutritional foods that would not "naturally" be there in the drier times. They are still growing in those cases through those dryier times, and we new see pyramided "wild" tortoises. You see tortoises that are kept in backyards or colonies where collected for later sale. There they are fed through drier times. They are semi-captive, but in their "natural range", and yes they will pyramid.

A big factor in seeing how this assessment is true is looking at sulcatas. They can become grossly pyramided, they are so "prone" to it. Yet you will not find a wild sulcata with any pyramiding. That is because there has been no agricultural expansion in the Sahel - their natural range. The land is not suited for agriculture and herding animals is the expansion that has occurred instead. So there has been no change to the availability of nutritional foods in the drier seasons, and we see no pyramided "wild" sulcatas to this day. You will certainly see pyramided semi-captive sulcatas as with the other species when that occurs.

So, that leads us to why your tortoises have pyramided. Food availability and growth in drier conditions. Even though you are located in their "natural range" as we have seen, all these tortoises come from areas where some times of the year are not conducive to "natural" growth. So if we continue to feed in those seasons, or place them on unnatural surfaces or enclosures that dry much more than "natural conditions" would - we will see the tortoise pyramid. So in captivity, we are left with a choice - continue to feed the tortoise and allow it to grow. Then we must also duplicate the monsoon season and keep the new growth from drying "unnaturally". If we want to provide a more "natural" environment and allow some of the year to be a drier, non-monsoonal type condition, then we must stop feeding as much and slow growth to a virtual stop during those times, or you will have a pyramided tortoise.

Wow tysm for such a detalied answer and explaination..
This will surely help me in my future projects with torts..!