Peat moss?

[Brian]

I have an 8 month old Sulcata, currently living in a 24"x24"x8" tank with a heat pad, heat lamp, orchard grass substrate and a hide box. I want to change the orchard grass to something a little more natural looking. I have read that I can use a 50/50 mixture of sand and coco fiber or sand and top soil. I was wondering if i could use peat moss instead of topsoil, also in a 50/50 mix with sand. Is this gonna be bad for my tortoise?
Thanks in advance

 

[Vegas_Leopard]

Id also like to know this for anyone who knows about this, please do tell.

 

[Brian]

Ok, after doing some more research I went ahead and used a mixture of coco fiber, peat moss, sand and a little orchard grass all mixed up for his new substrate. I am having trouble getting good info from the web as it seems 1 site will tell you sand is best, the next will say don't use it at all, etc. All the clashing info is becoming very confusing for me. Any help or info would help, as I always get better info directly from forums like these from actual keepers.
Thanks again and look forward to a response.

 

[Kristina]

My only concern would be that if the timothy grass is stirred right IN with the moist substrate, it WILL mold.

It is okay to lay it on top of the moist substrate as long as it is changed regularly.

Kristina

 

[purpod]

... I am having trouble getting good info from the web as it seems 1 site will tell you sand is best, the next will say don't use it at all, etc. All the clashing info is becoming very confusing for me. Any help or info would help, as I always get better info directly from forums like these from actual keepers.

Hiya Bri ~
Yes, it is difficult as there are tons of peeps who use different substrates and different opinions on such.. I would suggest you direct your questions to Josh ~ He has a gorgeous sulcata named Lil' Foot who is quite happy and healthy.

Bestest wishes for some positive feedback,
Purpod

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm not real sure because I'm old and memory isn't what it should be, but I seem to remember back a while ago someone said that using "peat" moss isn't a good idea because its too acidic. Folks use spagnum moss, but not peat moss. Or maybe I'm thinking about in the incubator....????

Yvonne

 

[Brian]

Ok, so I should not mix the orchard grass (same as timothy hay I presume) in with the peat. I figured it would just rot away if it wasn't eaten first. So far he seems to like it, being able to dig down a bit. I am keeping it rather dry. I figured a wet or damp substrate wasn't a good idea so I only have lightly sprayed the substrate down and let it dry out. I know that humidity is good for the young tortoises to prevent pyrimiding of the shell. He has a hide box. Should I keep it wetter then the rest of the floor?
Also, if peat is too acidic then please someone confirm. I want to make sure I give this little guy the best possible care and housing. This is my lifeline (this forum) since I don't trust the info out there on the web. ANy helpful advice, reading, websites, links or forum stickies would be much appreciated.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi Brian...The best thing would be to pick one site (like this forum) and follow the advice here or your head will explode from all the contradictions. Don't mix the hay in, it will mold. Do pour water over the substrate and mix it in. Don't keep it dry, keep it moist. I use fine grade orchid bark, but most experienced keepers use eco earth and sand...I don't use hay as a substrate for babies simply because you want to create that humidity and a moist substrate will do that...
I don't approve of using a heat pad under young tortoises. I have always read that with young animals the plastron will deform, and some small torts arent smart enough to get off the pad when they get too hot. I always advise to use a basking light to mimic the sun...

 

[K9KidsLove]

Hi...Maggie is right. Do not use a heat pad. Check your temps with a temp gun or a digital thermometer with a probe on the end of a wire. They need their heat from above. And the hay will mold mixed in damp substrate.

You can get Bed-A-Beast at pet stores in a brick. It is like Eco Earth. You won't need the whole brick. I usually take a big knife & cut chunks off. You will probably only need about a third of it. Put it in a bucket or something & barely cover it with hot water. It will absorb the water and expand. Mix it 50/50 with playsand...never reptile sand. I get my sand from Home Depot. Keep the enclosure damp, not wet.

I suggest dumping what you have into a garden & til it in the soil and start over!
Good luck
Patsy

 

[Brian]

Ok, will do this weekend. He is kept in the house where the temps are regularly in the low 70's to high 60's at times and I just thought that having the heat pad allowed the entire enclosure to reach acceptable temps. I guess I was thinking that since the floor of the tank had a few inches of substrate that it wouldn't be of concern but seeing as how they dig I see how this could be bad. I have tons of coco fiber (I use it in my dart frog vivariums) and have play sand as well so I will go that route. Should I be concerned that the tank is in the 70 degree range, except for around the area that the heat lamp is over (which is in the 90's) or should I just allow the tortoise to regulate himself and not worry too much about it? Also, what does everybody think about multiple heat lamps regulated by a thermostat with an in tank probe? I am thinking 1 light on always for a basking spot and setting the other to about 78.
Also, how deep should the substrate be? I only have about 8 inches in height to work with. Is 2" too deep?
Thanks again and keep all the advice coming!

 

[tortoisenerd]

My advice would be to entirely nix the heat pad (seems like others that posted above agree as well). With your house temps rather reasonable, and a heat lamp, the tort should regulate himself to stay within the right range, although I have heard they will not self-regulate at night (ie. may not move to find a warmer spot if they are cold). There can be some scenarios that the tort might not regulate the temperature--such as if they were concerned about their safety (not wanting to be out in the open near the light). Hatchlings in the wild spend most of their time hiding, and even in captivity they can be skittish. If you are worried about your tort not being warm enough, having something for it to burrow in or hide under near the heat is a great idea. My little RT likes to burrow in right near the heat lamp and/or heat emitter. At first I didn't have anything near the heat for him so he was just staying in the cool end being inactive because he was too cold. Hatchlings tend to like it a little warmer anyways, so if you notice your little tort being inactive or similar, you may just bump up the temps a few degrees and see if that helps (mine likes it warmer than care sheets specify).

Someone familiar with Sulcatas can hopefully give you exact temperatures to aim for though. I did a quick look-up and they seem similar to my RT's--the 90s for the basking area, and a gradient into the 70s and 80s with 60s ok for night. Seems like you are on-track with that. The whole enclosure does not need to be warmed to one level.

Does your little one like to dig much? More substrate may be necessary for that--I personally use about 4-5 inches, and my tort is only 2 inches. He actually digs all the way down. I'd keep an eye on it and see if you might want to add more if s/he regularly digs to the bottom. You may need a taller enclosure depending on his/her size because ideally you want something that from the substrate height (and anything the tort could climb on near a wall), it shouldn't even be near to putting it's arms over the edge. Actually having the walls twice the height of the tort is a good idea, and with a growing tort you'll have to keep that in mind. Make sure there isn't something near the walls the tort can climb up on and go over. Apparently they can escape most commonly at the corners. You can see how when the tort grows you'll need something taller, especially if you add in 2-6 inches of substrate. You can also make it deeper on some areas more than others, like where your tort sleeps or digs. Making an inward-facing lip on the container (if possible) is another way to keep the tort in without adding too much height as they will have a lot more trouble getting out that way.

With your size of enclosure, I really can't see using more than one heat/UVB light. Mine is over 8 square feet, and I still have the one light. I place it in the middle, where the tort can walk around it if it's too hot. That seems to spread out the heat more too because the gradient reaches everywhere but the way edges, to some extent. The edges of my enclosure are at room temperature, with the gradient in between. I also use a ceramic heat emitter to one side of the light and just leave it on all the time (while the light goes off at night).

There should really be a good gradient temperature range, and having multiple heat sources may over-complicate that in a relatively small enclosure. If your room temperature is the same as it is in the enclosure (check this at the corners of the enclosure because it can vary away from the thermostat, and moist substrate can make it even cooler), then it seems to me like you have an appropriate gradient with just the one light. You can overdo the UVB if you have several strong bulbs. Do you have a mercury vapor bulb (the combo heat and UVB)? I'm assuming you do as that is what it sounds like. The UVB output on some is rather high, depending on its height from the substrate. If your tort was getting multiple exposure I assume at some point it would get to be too much, in addition to the fact that it is too much heat. If you really end up needing more heat (which it is not looking like right now), a black light bulb or ceramic heat emitter can be used. Not sure what you mean by multiple heat lamps...

Black light bulbs and CHEs don't emit light, and are considered safe with the necessary precautions (heat pads can both cause injury and interfere with thermo-regulation as the heat is coming from underneath instead of from above like it is in nature).

I think the tank in the 70s is fine because with the basking point in the 90s, where will be some areas around the bulb that are in the 80s. Where does the tort spend most of its time?

 

[purpod]

Greetings Peeps ~

I'm a tad confused as to why someone would post to use play sand rather than sand made of calcium specifically for rep's? A little guy does not need much in the way of ingesting sand to cause compaction ~ would it not be bestest to use sand made of calcium {which can be used by the body} rather than play sand, which could surely cause digestive issues if accidently ingested?

Just curious folks ~
Blessings,
Purpod

 

[tortoisenerd]

From what I've heard the calcium sand is "tasty" and smaller particles, causing it to be more commonly eaten. The sand is also a lighter color resembling calcium sources in the wild. The play sand would not be used solely, has larger particles, isn't "tasty", and darker in color. While either sand could be eaten and cause impaction, the more appealing and tasty sand has the higher potential of being ingested, and in larger quantities.

I personally don't use any sand with my little guy. I didn't like the coconut fiber and play sand mix when I tried it with my hatchling, and it irritated his eyes.

 

[purpod]

Thanx for your info, TN. I have a portion of my tort's outdoor enclosure in repti-sand; I use black, altho it comes in a wide variety of colors. Luckily, neither of my leopards have found it to be tasty. And I do not use such in their indoor enclosure ~

Anyways, thanx, I was curious ~
blessings,
Purpod

 

[Kristina]

Repti-sand also can be very irritating to eyes and skin, because it is so fine and dusty. It really isn't a good choice for substrate for any reptile, in my opinion.

If one is worried about impactions, you can even lay down a piece of paper to feed on.

Kristina

 

[tortoisenerd]

A tile such as slate is great to feed on too. My little guy can sure push around his food. Helps with the beak and nails.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

If the tortoise is kept well hydrated impaction from sand is not a worry. It's an old wives tale that they can be so easily impacted. I alway say to pretend the basking light is the sun and keep it on for 13 hours then turn off all lights that emit light. Tortoises like to sleep in the dark just like most people. I use a black light bulb on a cool end because I don't believe in letting babies get too cold and in my experience 70 degrees at night is too cold for a baby. May be alright for an adult. I would never even allow my adults to have a low temp of 60 degrees.
I have some babies in the house in a tort table and I just went and measured and they have 3.5 inches of orchid bark as the substrate...

 

[K9KidsLove]

Hi...I respectfully disagree with Maggie.
I worked 8 years with a vet who is also an exotics specialist. There are very few people around here who keep exotics, as we live in redneck country! I, unfortunately, am a transplant!! However, I have seen 4 cases of reptile sand impaction in tortoises & one stone impaction, as well as 8 or 9 bearded dragon & gecko sand impactions. With one exception, they all passed it. Plus, I lost a gecko to reptile sand impaction before I knew better.
I don't recommend reptile sand for anything... Especially not for youngsters. Some people have said they have had reptiles for years and used reptile sand & never had a problem. I say, they were just lucky. Why take the chance when there are safe options.

Patsy

 

[nrfitchett4]

I guess there really are a lot of different opinions. Most of the info I have read that came from rescues, says that sand is a bigtime no no and on herpcenter.com they even have pics of how impacted sand comes out.
My question is all this soaking and hydrating. Melissa Kaplan says that these are african tortoises and that too much greens or water can cause kidney damage. They can't handle that much. Any info on this?

 

[Kristina]

Anapsid.org is a great site, but has not been updated in 10 years. A lot of the information on there (feeding alfalfa to torts, for example) is very outdated.

I agree that a lot of greens are not good for Sulcatas. However, I do not agree on the water. In the wild, Sulcatas spend a lot of time in the cool, MOIST microclimate of their burrows. They are not out baking in the Sahara sun all day long.

My girls both drink a lot of water, and free choice soak quite often. I can't imagine that they would be guzzling water that their bodies didn't need. Their skin as actually quite permeable to moisture, and they are drinking the humidity that in the wild they would be getting from the dampness of their burrow, which they increase by urinating and defacating in the burrow.

These animals have been on earth for a long time, and we need to give them a bit more credit for instinct.

Also, if it is true that they do not need water, then why do so many Sulcata hatchlings die from dehydration?

Kristina