NEW HERE! Need help...

[zenchew]

hi all,

I just got my two star torts... they are around 2.8-3in...
by this size can anyone tell mi how old they are?

right now, they sleep alot.. eat very little.. they look weak.. seldom see them move.. is there anything wrong with them? i m worried...

the only time i saw them move the most is when i place them in a dish of water, they would wake up n drink..

 

[JourneyTort]

hi all,

I just got my two star torts... they are around 2.8-3in...
by this size can anyone tell mi how old they are?

right now, they sleep alot.. eat very little.. they look weak.. seldom see them move.. is there anything wrong with them? i m worried...

the only time i saw them move the most is when i place them in a dish of water, they would wake up n drink..

You don't say how long you have had them? If it is just recently it will take a while for them to settle.

Tell us a little about how you are caring for them, substrate, lights, heat, etc. Do they have a water dish where they can go in on their own to soak? What kind of food are you offering them? Do you have hides for them?

 

[sammi]

Can you post pictures?

 

[zenchew]

Hi all,

I just got them on mon..
I still havent prepared a table for them. right now i m housing them in a box.
i m still working on their enclosure.
which substrate should i use?

I lived in in a tropical country in South East Asia region, very near the equator. The weather here is sunny and humid all year long.

right now, i m feeding them cabbage and strawberry leaves.

btw, they start feeding already.. but still sleep alot though..

 

[tortoisenerd]

Yes, a lot of further information and pictures of both the enclosure/s and tortoises will be helpful. Even hatchlings should be up and active every day basking, eating, etc, although they sleep and nap a lot. I recommend a vet check up for general health, a fecal test for parasites, and to get the vet's opinion on how they look. They should never look weak. The first thing I think is that they are too cold, or that they are sick. DO you have heat on them? They need to an enclosure with a gradient of 70 to 95 degrees F. They need to get to about 85 degrees F to want to eat. You need to research the diet more. Cabbage is too starchy for them. Strawberry leaves are ok in moderation, but you need a much more varied diet. What kinds of greens/lettuces are available at your supermarket? Do you have access to garden weeds with are free from chemicals? Can you grow food for them? Hopefully someone will come along soon with more information on Stars as far as substrate. Have a look through this forum's old posts on them using the search function and in this Star sub-forum. Best wishes.

 

[Luvthemtorts]

Timothy hay is a very good substrate provided you are diligent enough to clean it frequently. Cypress mulch at their size would be just fine. Make sure to dry it before use as it is typically saturated from sitting outside in the lawn and garden section.
As far as why they seem lethargic just as everyone else suggested, more details need to be known such as ambient and basking temperatures, photoperiod, soaking schedule, etc.. I would also be curious as to where you acquired your animals. Did they come from a breeder or a retailer?
From your description of having them "in a box" it sounds like there could be several cuprits as to why your little ones seem to be lethargic. Please be a specific as possible with your setup so you can get the help you need to get your little ones started on the right path.
As a side note I would suggest going easy on the cabbage and instead turn to something a bit more natural such as non toxic weeds and grasses, opuntia and endive/escarole if you have limited access to picking your own foods.

 

[zenchew]

Yes, a lot of further information and pictures of both the enclosure/s and tortoises will be helpful. Even hatchlings should be up and active every day basking, eating, etc, although they sleep and nap a lot. I recommend a vet check up for general health, a fecal test for parasites, and to get the vet's opinion on how they look. They should never look weak. The first thing I think is that they are too cold, or that they are sick. DO you have heat on them? They need to an enclosure with a gradient of 70 to 95 degrees F. They need to get to about 85 degrees F to want to eat. You need to research the diet more. Cabbage is too starchy for them. Strawberry leaves are ok in moderation, but you need a much more varied diet. What kinds of greens/lettuces are available at your supermarket? Do you have access to garden weeds with are free from chemicals? Can you grow food for them? Hopefully someone will come along soon with more information on Stars as far as substrate. Have a look through this forum's old posts on them using the search function and in this Star sub-forum. Best wishes.

hi,

yst after soaking them, they started to move about and feed. they eat strawberry leaves and some orange plup. i dont have access to garden weeds.. but the markets do sell alot of greens, any other recommended greens? i could get mabury leaves too..

as for substate, i will be getting timothy hay.

The temperature in my country is 31-33deg C in the day and 26-30deg C in the night. Everyday..

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Timothy hay is not a good substrate for them. You need to use cypress mulch or orchid bark and keep it slightly damp. You can't keep hay damp as it will mold. So hay is not a good substrate. Cabbage isn't a great food either. Get some broad leaf dark green veggies like kale, collard and mustard greens. Can you get Spring Mix where you are? What kind of a container do you have them in? What is the temp in the container? It sounds like they are babies. They will stay how they are now until you get them set up correctly. They are stressed and frightened now, so get them set up quickly and please don't use hay...

 

[Luvthemtorts]

I beg to differ. I have produced well over 80 hatchlings and once past the initial hatchling stage Timothy hay is an OUSTANDING substrate provided the keeper is willing to invest the time to keep the enclosure clean. If you want something low maintenance then yes Cypress would be a better however Elegans are not low maintenance charges so performing the necessary substrate changes shouldn't be an issue.
With the tortoises nearing 3 inches they are not as quick to dehydrate as hatchlings and will thrive quite well with three 15 minute soaks a week and a humid microclimate. This can easily be achieved by using a plastic storage box with a hole cut in it with a damp kitchen sponge attached to the lid of the box.
As far as diet first and foremost drop the citrus fruit (orange pulp). Since you have no access to garden greens build a healthy foundation with the greens available at your food market. Dandelion greens, Endive, Escarole, Opuntia pads, mustard and collared greens, etc.. Another excellent but often overlooked food source is simply the grass from an unfertilized lawn.
No disrespect intended to Maggie but these are all tried and proven methods provided YOU as the keeper invest the time to maintain a sanitary enclosure.

Timothy hay is not a good substrate for them. You need to use cypress mulch or orchid bark and keep it slightly damp. You can't keep hay damp as it will mold. So hay is not a good substrate. Cabbage isn't a great food either. Get some broad leaf dark green veggies like kale, collard and mustard greens. Can you get Spring Mix where you are? What kind of a container do you have them in? What is the temp in the container? It sounds like they are babies. They will stay how they are now until you get them set up correctly. They are stressed and frightened now, so get them set up quickly and please don't use hay...

 

[zenchew]

hi all,

this is what i can get here..

which bedding should i choose?
http://www.petsgourmet.com.sg/index...rt&page=shop.browse&category_id=182&Itemid=44

---

or which hay...hay

 

[Luvthemtorts]

The first cut Timothy hay would be an excellent choice. Just for your future reference the higher the number (2nd and 3rd cut) the more stem will be in the package. First cut will consist primarily of a soft "grass like" hay which is both nutrtious and appealing.
As mentioned previously hay requires more maintenance because it does not effectively absorb or trap moisture. This means when the animals urinate it will filter to the bottom of the enclosure and cause mold and ammonia buildup if not dealt with.
The good news is hay is one of the easiest to clean. Its light, cheap and readily available in most places which makes weekly changes simple and promotes good husbandry habits.
If you are not willing to invest the time to clean the enclosure at weekly intervals then Maggie's advice regarding Cypress is spot on. Unfortunately I do not see it available from the link you provided.
May I ask where you are located? $43.00 for 5 pounds is ridiculous. Here in the states a 40 pound bale can be purchased at the feedstore for less than $25.00 in many cases.

EDIT: I noticed the supply store is located in Singapore. If this is where you live a simple google search of Timothy hay in Singapore yielded several results that will offer you more hay for your money.

 

[zenchew]

The first cut Timothy hay would be an excellent choice. Just for your future reference the higher the number (2nd and 3rd cut) the more stem will be in the package. First cut will consist primarily of a soft "grass like" hay which is both nutrtious and appealing.
As mentioned previously hay requires more maintenance because it does not effectively absorb or trap moisture. This means when the animals urinate it will filter to the bottom of the enclosure and cause mold and ammonia buildup if not dealt with.
The good news is hay is one of the easiest to clean. Its light, cheap and readily available in most places which makes weekly changes simple and promotes good husbandry habits.
If you are not willing to invest the time to clean the enclosure at weekly intervals then Maggie's advice regarding Cypress is spot on. Unfortunately I do not see it available from the link you provided.
May I ask where you are located? $43.00 for 5 pounds is ridiculous. Here in the states a 40 pound bale can be purchased at the feedstore for less than $25.00 in many cases.

hi
thanks for the fast reply..
ya.. kind of expensive here though..
what about the bedding? any suitable?

i live in a small country in the south east asia..
cant mention the country cause it is consider illegal to keep star tortoise here..

 

[dong2che]

Zenchew, I'm from the Lil Red Dot too. I know how difficult it is to find stuff for our stars.

 

[Luvthemtorts]

All of the beddings appear to be pelleted with the exception of one or two and none seem to be particularly appropriate.
If you can't get the hay Cypress is a good substitute and will last longer between cleanings. Since you are in Asia I have doubts that you can find Cypress but check with your local gardening center. If it isn't available then try to find topsoil without any additives. That should be relatively easy to find. Avoid any mulch or substrate made from "soft wood" to be on the safe side as this usually implies pine or a close relative.
Timothy, Orchard and Bermuda grass is often used for livestock and rabbits so if you have a place local that caters to them try there as well.
If topsoil is indeed what you must go with make sure that it is indeed pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilzer free. Place small batches in your oven at 200 degrees or so and bake it to dry it out a bit. This will kill any bug larvae or eggs that may be present. It is heavy and dusty when completely dry but will suffice.

 

[zenchew]

i bought a containter for them yst..
now all i need is the hay... i will get the Timothy hay..

how do i go about to change the hay? partial or full? every week?

I bought cess for them yst.. they seem to like them very much..
right now they move around more...

one of them dun even hide when i pick it up.. it dare to move about on my palm...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I beg to differ. I have produced well over 80 hatchlings and once past the initial hatchling stage Timothy hay is an OUSTANDING substrate provided the keeper is willing to invest the time to keep the enclosure clean. If you want something low maintenance then yes Cypress would be a better however Elegans are not low maintenance charges so performing the necessary substrate changes shouldn't be an issue.
With the tortoises nearing 3 inches they are not as quick to dehydrate as hatchlings and will thrive quite well with three 15 minute soaks a week and a humid microclimate. This can easily be achieved by using a plastic storage box with a hole cut in it with a damp kitchen sponge attached to the lid of the box.
As far as diet first and foremost drop the citrus fruit (orange pulp). Since you have no access to garden greens build a healthy foundation with the greens available at your food market. Dandelion greens, Endive, Escarole, Opuntia pads, mustard and collared greens, etc.. Another excellent but often overlooked food source is simply the grass from an unfertilized lawn.
No disrespect intended to Maggie but these are all tried and proven methods provided YOU as the keeper invest the time to maintain a sanitary enclosure.

Timothy hay is not a good substrate for them. You need to use cypress mulch or orchid bark and keep it slightly damp. You can't keep hay damp as it will mold. So hay is not a good substrate. Cabbage isn't a great food either. Get some broad leaf dark green veggies like kale, collard and mustard greens. Can you get Spring Mix where you are? What kind of a container do you have them in? What is the temp in the container? It sounds like they are babies. They will stay how they are now until you get them set up correctly. They are stressed and frightened now, so get them set up quickly and please don't use hay...

I read that they need a humid environment and I know humidity and hay don't go together. So it doesn't make sense to me that you would want hay as a substrate when the animal needs humidity.

 

[Luvthemtorts]

Zenchew,
Substrate changes will be dependent upon several factors and must be gauged by you the keeper. They will often deficate/urinate while soaking so if you place them on a soaking schedule of every other day then it may be of benefit to you as well as the tortoises. The tortoises will remain hydrated and in turn leave much of their waste in the container you soak them in.
If you can commit to soaking them every other day there will be no need to place a water bowl within the enclosure which makes it much easier to maintain sanitary conditions.
When you pull the hay out of the bag shake it as you place it in the enclosure. This will fluff it up a bit and make your supply last a bit longer. No need for a really deep layer provided you have a few hides for the animals (and you're gonna have a humid hide box right? hint hint).
Basically just keep an eye out for mold or a pungent smell. If none is noted start with a 2 week cleaning and tailor it to suit your animals specific needs.

---

Maggie,
I truly mean no offense by disagreeing with you and I hope you don't take it as such.
You mention you read that they need humidity. In fact they do but by utilizing a humid hide and frequent soakings you provide the moisture they need to stay adequately hydrated. Thats the part that comes with experience working with the species and interaction with other breeders. I have seen caresheets that range from outdated to downright dangerous and would much prefer to share what has worked for me and others for years versus a new keeper stumbling across one of these and ending up with a sick or dead animal.
The problem with a moist substrate is that if the temps are not maintained very close to perfect the animals can become ill very fast. Elegans can withstand cooler temps provided it is dry and more moisture provided it is warm. Fail to heed that and they are quite susceptible to URI. I've had it happen to me when I first started working with them years ago and believe me it is a horrible situation with an often tragic outcome and it could have been avoided altogether if I would have received better advice.
I choose to play it safe and avoid the potential of illness by using proven methods to keep the animals hydrated and avoid exposing them to an environment that may lead to serious problems.

 

[zenchew]

one thing i can say is...

my country has a perfect living climate for the stars...
it is very humid throughout the day (75-80%). temperature is 29-33degC.
so i guess there is no problem regarding humidity and temperature.

right now, i m soaking them every day. is it ok?
if i m soaking them everyday, do i still need to place water in their enclosure?

 

[Luvthemtorts]

Zenchew,
That is a bit excessive and may cause undue stress to your tortoise. Elegans are typically shy and withdrawn and do not do well with constant attention. There are exceptions to this rule of course but in general they are not as outgoing as many other tortoise species.
Every other day is plenty. As long as you adhere to this schedule there is no need whatsoever for water in the enclosure.
This will work for hatchlings through adults.
You are understanding the emphasis I am placing on the humid hide box correct?

 

[zenchew]

Zenchew,
That is a bit excessive and may cause undue stress to your tortoise. Elegans are typically shy and withdrawn and do not do well with constant attention. There are exceptions to this rule of course but in general they are not as outgoing as many other tortoise species.
Every other day is plenty. As long as you adhere to this schedule there is no need whatsoever for water in the enclosure.
This will work for hatchlings through adults.
You are understanding the emphasis I am placing on the humid hide box correct?

is there any correct amount of water i should fill the dish when soaking them?

alrighty.. i will soak them every other day...