Miniature sully or something else....???

[DesertGrandma]

Interesting thread. Sure will be fun to find out just what this tort is. So glad you were able to get it.

 

[Shannon and Jason]

Yes very interested myself to see how this plays out hopefully the lil guy will start growing with proper care

 

[CourtneyG]

Defiantly not a Padlooper. Padloopers prefer high humidity only in their hides, and low levels in the tank.

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The shell pattern is even wrong to begin with.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

Your new little tortoise looks similar to the last picture on this page:

http://www.arkive.org/chaco-tortoise/chelonoidis-chilensis/photos.html

I'm so glad you bought him. Please keep us updated with pictures. If you don't mind, I'd like to show your pictures to Danny over on Shelled Warriors.

I don't mind. Let me know what he says.

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Thanks Yvonne. He does look alot like the Chaco tortoise in the pic. I wish I could flip that Chaco over and take a look at its plastron.

I'll keep the forum updated with pictures and weights.

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Looks like a sulcata to me, I've seen a few sulcatas that small around the same age but they all had no access to UV. A name suggestion I have for him/her is Sandstone.

Elliott, do you know how long those sullies lived?

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i think its a chaco.......

I hope so. If he's a Chaco, then he's only a little small for his age and has a good chance of surviving. If he's a sully then I fear that he may have some severe health issues.

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Either way, we'll get him fat and happy and see what happens.

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I know one passed but the rest (to my knowledge) are still living. I'd also give mazuri every day to him/her.

 

[mctlong]

I have seen many suer small sulcata. Usually its due to dehydration and a diet of just hay or grass. I think some of the babies that are started with the dry method somehow survive it, but it stunts them. I've seen 6 year old sulcatas this size. The ones I've seen before were living outside mostly, so subjected to temperature extremes, and extreme dryness here in SoCal. Indoors they usually still grow, they just grow very disfigured. Just mentioning some generalities...

The color could be explained by the red reptisand. The beak, well, we all know the contributing factors there. The front leg scales suggest sulcata to me, but I've been wrong before and I'll probably be wrong again.

Looks like a stunted, stained sulcata to me. No way of knowing the life span. It might die tomorrow, or live more than 100 years.

Thanks Tom -

Its hard to tell in the pic, but the red staining from the red sand is different than the chocolate brown color of the carapace. The staining is primarily on the plastron and legs, and a little around the ridges of the carapace. Its bright red, the color of kool-aid. Its patchy, darker in some areas and lighter in others. The carapace color, on the other hand, is brown in color and uniform throughout. Its not patchy like the red stains. I don't think the red sand caused this brown color, mostly because of the uniformity and color, compared to the plastron stains, and also because the sand was not deep enough to burrow in and likely did not have alot of contact with higher parts of the shell.

With the stunted sullies you've seen, do you remember what sorts of associated health complications they may have had? Is there anything you'd recommend keeping an eye out for? I'm thinking with the dehydration, there's a good chance of liver and kidney issues. I don't see any signs of MBD yet. He seems to get around just fine and walks normally.

I know one passed but the rest (to my knowledge) are still living. I'd also give mazuri every day to him/her.

Thanks Elliott-

I agree. I don't usually feed Mazuri, but I am making an exception in this case. I think it'll be a good way to fatten him up. He's got some on his plate now. He hasn't eaten anything yet, but its still early and he may be a little stressed from all the change.

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Defiantly not a Padlooper. Padloopers prefer high humidity only in their hides, and low levels in the tank.

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The shell pattern is even wrong to begin with.

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Thanks Courtney -

I agree, I think we've exhausted that possibility. It would've been cool though.

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Yes very interested myself to see how this plays out hopefully the lil guy will start growing with proper care

Thanks Jason -

I hope he will start growing too.

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Interesting thread. Sure will be fun to find out just what this tort is. So glad you were able to get it.

Thanks Joy -

He looked so small and sickly in the post. I had to get him.

 

[Tortoise]

Good luck with your mystery tortoise-sounds like he or she is lucky to be owned by you.

 

[mctlong]

Re: RE: Miniature sully or something else....???

Good luck with your mystery tortoise-sounds like he or she is lucky to be owned by you.

Thanks tortoise!

 

[Anjulene]

You might try feeding him more variety in his diet and perhaps a little more food so
He grows faster. Maybe a little Kale and Greenbeans and some timothy hay. I mist them all together and add some calcium. This is the only way I can get my
Tortoises to eat the hay they need.

 

[mctlong]

Re: RE: Miniature sully or something else....???

You might try feeding him more variety in his diet and perhaps a little more food so
He grows faster. Maybe a little Kale and Greenbeans and some timothy hay. I mist them all together and add some calcium. This is the only way I can get my
Tortoises to eat the hay they need.

Thanks Anjulene. He's not eating much yet, but in the four days that I've had him, he's been offered a wide assortment of food including dandolion greens, chopped up prickley pear pad, shredded carrot, collards greens, mazuri, and grassland tortoise pellets. Yesterday I transplanted some mature mixed grasses into his enclosure and I planted some seeds. His previous owner indicated that most of his food came from grazing in the backyard, so I'm hoping that the new grass will encourage him to eat. It'll be awhile before the seeds grow, but they contain a good mix of weeds.

 

[Anjulene]

I hate to say it but very young Tortoises can and will eat crickets. This is what happens at the Zoo I frequent. They are supposed to be good for them so you might check into this. Everything else you are feeding sounds spot on.

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Oh and when I got my youngest she had a hard time adjusting to the new temp, surroundings, and change in diet. She didn't eat for a while. Maybe yours will perk up as soon as it realizes he/she has a better home!!!

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I am partial to giving my animals old folk names. How about Greer?

 

[Yvonne G]

Anjulene: You're preaching to the choir! MCTLong is not a newbie in tortoise-keeping. She has quite a bit of experience and is sharing with us a rescue she has taken in and trying to rehab.

 

[mctlong]

I hate to say it but very young Tortoises can and will eat crickets. This is what happens at the Zoo I frequent.

Have you observed this behavior yourself? What sort of tortoises were they? Sulcatas don't eat crickets. I wish they did. I've got way too many in my yard and they drive me crazy at night!

Oh and when I got my youngest she had a hard time adjusting to the new temp, surroundings, and change in diet. She didn't eat for a while. Maybe yours will perk up as soon as it realizes he/she has a better home!!!

That’s the hope!
She did eat a little this weekend, so that’s encouraging.

I am partial to giving my animals old folk names. How about Greer?

What type of name is that? Celtic?
I've been going between calling her 'tiny' and 'pinky', but she still has no real name yet.

Anjulene: You're preaching to the choir! MCTLong is not a newbie in tortoise-keeping. She has quite a bit of experience and is sharing with us a rescue she has taken in and trying to rehab.

Thanks Yvonne.

Anjulene, I couldn’t find your introduction thread. Did you start one? It would be a great place to let people know who you are and introduce your tortoises.

 

[EricIvins]

The color is a result of iron staining......

 

[mctlong]

The color is a result of iron staining......

Iron!!! Yes, great observation! Light bulbs going off …….

I don't think that the copper color on his carapace was caused by direct contact with iron-rich soil simply because his carapace was not in direct contact with any soil. The dry sand in his aquarium was very shallow, so he was not burrowing. Additionally, his plastron, which was in direct contact with the sand was dyed with bright red patches, very different from the odd brown/copper carapace color. Therefore, the odd color of the carapace was not caused by direct contact with the sand. However….I wonder if ingestion (as opposed to direct physical contact) with the red sand could have caused his odd coloration. I don’t know how calcium sand gets its red color. Naturally red sand is high in iron oxide, but the calcium sand may have been dyed with artificial color (something I’ll need to google and find out). If the calcium sand is high in Iron, then I wonder if eating this iron-rich sand caused his strange coloration. People with haemochromatosis (iron overload) will develop a bronze-skin tone. Can iron overload in tortoises have a similar color-changing effect? I’ll do some internet research tonight and see if I can find any studies on the effects of iron-overload on reptiles.

Thinking outloud, the two questions that are floating around in my mind are:

1.) Is the petstore-quality red calcium sand naturally red due to iron oxide or is it dyed with non-iron-containing red dye. If red dye, what is in this red dye and is it toxic?

2.) If the sand is red due to iron, what are the effects of haemochromatosis on tortoises? Can iron overload stunt growth?

I’m so glad I posted here, its great to bounce ideas off such insightful people.

Thank you EricIvins and everyone.

 

[mctlong]

So the little guy had his first vet visit yesterday. I took my chance with a new vet (as opposed to my regular vet) because the new vet supposedely has more specialized experience with tortoises.

I wasn't able to bring in a stool sample. The little guy is not pooping, which has me concerned about potenital compaction. (However, I am keeping him on a dark topsoil, so it possible that he's pooping and I don't see it or that he's pooping and eating it when I'm not looking.) Nonetheless, without a poop sample, we couldn't test for parasites. The vet offered to provide some panacur anyways, but I think its best to wait instead of taking a chance of potentially making him sicker by giving him a medicine he may not require.

The vet noted that the little guy is retaining fluid, not a good sign, which he thinks is caused by liver damage. There's no way to know, at this point, whether the liver damage (if thats the problem) was congenital or environmetnal. However, he did say that liver damage can be caused by poor nutrition, specifically not eating enough protein (which makes me suspect that he's getting his species mixed up - which kinda annoyed me). Liver damage is sometimes reversable, so if this is the problem, he may get better with improved nutrition and hydration.

Overall, the vet's advise was to keep feeding him a healthy diet and either he'll live or he won't. I didn't find his advise overwhelmingly useful. He didn't recommend any blood work or lab tests (aside from the fecal which we'll get done as soon as we get a sample).

I may take him in to see another vet and get some labwork done to see if we can really pinopint a problem and find a real solution. If it turns out that he has parasites, then I'd want to know if there's a liver problem before giving him panacur. My common sense is telling me that its not a good idea to give anti-parasitic (essentially toxic) medicine to an animal with a failing liver.

On the upside, his activity level has picked up and he's not as lethargic as he was when I picked him up ten days ago. He hasn't gained any weight, but he hasn't lost any either, so I'm taking that as a good sign.

Anyhoo, just thought I'd update you all and let you know where the little guy was at.

 

[Tom]

I think you are right about the medicine, but the vet might be right about the protein. I had a phone conversation with Richard Fife a couple years ago, and one of the things we discussed was protein deficiency. He was of the opinion that many tortoises are fed a protein deficient diet. Salad mixes, grocery store greens and grass, does not offer a lot of protein. Neither do most of the other things we all recommend to feed. This is where things like alfalfa, legumes, clover and Mazuri are helpful as part of a varied diet.

My guess in this case is going to be organ damage due to chronic dehydration.

 

[mctlong]

Yes, the one thing we can definately say about this guy is that he was dehydrated, so I would not be at all surprised if long term dehydration resulted in liver or kidney damage.

 

[EricIvins]

Just google orange Alligator and you'll find a bunch of new stories and pictures of an iron stained Alligator. Note that the animal has moved to a different water source and the staining is starting to wear off. I'm sure you'll see the similarities......

 

[tortoise_man1]

I'm looking at photos of padlopers on google and it looks like my new tort's carapace is a bit more domed than the padlopers. What do you think?

I agree I have done some research on padloppers and they have very flat shells compared to sullys.

 

[mctlong]

Just google orange Alligator and you'll find a bunch of new stories and pictures of an iron stained Alligator. Note that the animal has moved to a different water source and the staining is starting to wear off. I'm sure you'll see the similarities......

Thats an interesting looking alligator! Thanks for the info.

I do see similarities in color. Thing is, this little tort is terrestrial. It was raised in a dry environment without regular soaks. It had water available for drinking, but didn't spend considerable time in water like the orange alligator did. Its drinking water came from the city's tap water system. This is the same tap water my torts drink and none of them turned orange.

I have had some luck scrubbing some of the kool-aid colored stains off the plastron with a toothbrush. Scrubbing makes no difference in the carapace. He may just have a naturally dark-colored carapace. We'll see in time if it fades.

I agree I have done some research on padloppers and they have very flat shells compared to sullys.

Yep, he's not a padloper. He's either a sulcata or a chaco. I've compared dozens of photos of the two side by side, but can't make a posiive ID. He's just too under-developed to make a definitive call. It'll become clearer if he lives and grows. As he grows, I'll be looking at the development of the scales on his front legs, the nodules/spurs on his thighs, the scutes on his plastron, and his head size to body size ratio. These should give us a good indication of species as the easiest method for differentiating the two, size, is not going to help us in this case.


He's also got a name now, btw. I'm calling him "Rusty" due to his unique coloration.