Meet my new "True" Sri Lankan Star Tortoises

[turtlesteve]

3 months is plenty of time for them to have had issues when you bought them. I can’t say with any certainty that this is the case, but they did not have all that much growth (for their age) when you got them. How did the breeder keep them? If there were issues there, that would be a big concern. If so, you want to get any replacement hatchlings ASAP after they hatch so you can avoid that potential issue.

Swapping out enclosures twice certainly did not help you, nor would adding the other two. This species stresses somewhat easily and you keep creating new reasons for them to become stressed.

My next question is: Did you measure temps everywhere in these enclosures (say with an IR thermometer)? I’m wondering with them initially being so inactive, if they were bedding down in areas that were cooler than your thermometer showed (say down in the 70’s) and waiting for conditions to improve. As Mark said they really like to be in the 90s in the daytime. I do not think they’d be dying if they were staying in the 80-85 range but it is definitely on the cooler end for the species, and if temps are much lower in some dark corners of the enclosure it could explain the results you’re seeing.

Steve

 

[wellington]

@Tom

 

[wellington]

So very sorry. I sent an alert above to Tom.
How are they acting before they die? How many have you lost?

 

[TammyJ]

I posted in the earlier thread...it's now a bit difficult following both.

 

[Tom]

I think Steve nailed it, as usual. Here is my recap of observations:
1. Did the breeder soak daily and keep them in a closed chamber?
2. Tubs and store bought reptile habitats just do not work. You can get away with it with some species, but...
3. I have always found G. elegans to be much more sensitive than other species. This includes Sri Lankans. When done optimally by someone like G-Stars or Mark W, everything goes perfectly, and we shrug our shoulders and go, "What? They are easy and everything went perfectly". But when you use the wrong type of enclosure, switch enclosures three times, add new torts that are three times their size, don't quarantine the new ones, don't keep them hot enough, etc..., we find they are less tolerant of anything less than perfect. What you set up and did would probably have been fine with any Testudo, radiata, sulcata, leopard or platynota, but G. elegans are less tolerant of "mistakes" like these. This is why I and other tortoise keepers refer to them as "more sensitive" than some other species. This is also why I choose not to work with them in favor of platynota instead. I find the burms to be much less sensitive and much more tolerant of any mistakes I've made. All stars are awesome tortoises, but I would caution anyone to be careful when dealing with baby elegans. Much more careful than most other species.
4. I certainly don't know for sure what went wrong in your case, but all of the above could have contributed. Did we talk about what heating and lighting equipment you are using? What type of UV bulb? What type of heat lamp? I recall a CHE on a thermostat for ambient, and that should be fine. Sometimes multiple CHEs need to be used to distribute the heat more evenly. With just one, it might have been plenty warm under it, but there could have been those cold dark corners that Steve mentioned. I prefer RHPs for this reason.

I'm sorry to see you going through this @TommyTheV . I love seeing people so happy and enthusiastic about their new tortoise projects, and this would have been beautiful if things hadn't taken this sad turn. I hope you do eventually figure out exactly what went wrong and we can all learn from it. I also hope you have much success going forward having learned from this experience.

To anyone reading, here are some tips to avoid this sort of thing:
1. Have the right enclosure to begin with. Have it set up and running for a week or more BEFORE you bring tortoises home. Make all your fine tuning tweaks and adjustments BEFORE you put a tortoise in it. For hatchlings of tropical species the "right" enclosure is the 48x24xw24 inch closed chamber made of expanded PVC material, or something larger.
2. For sensitive species, and really for any species, let them settle in before making changes. Wait for some steady growth. This goes back to number 1 on this list. If everything is set up, run, tested, adjusted, and set perfectly BEFORE they come home, there will be no need to make stress inducing changes to their environment or routine.
3. Soak all babies for at least 30-40 minutes daily. I go an hour some days.
4. Keep like sizes with like sizes. Tiny sensitive babies can be traumatized and stressed by larger tortoises, even of the same species. Larger babies are much more bold and active and will walk around bowling smaller tortoise right out of their way.
5. If you are buying from a breeder that does everything right, then wait longer and get bigger babies that are showing steady growth. If you don't know the breeder or are unsure of the practices, find another breeder. If you must buy from an uncertain source, then get the baby ASAP after hatching to minimize damage, and you better have everything at home set up and perfect ahead of time.
6. I agree with what @zovick said about weighing monthly, but I will freely admit that I weigh tiny babies like this weekly. When I first got my platynota, I weighed them two or three times a week, and yes, I was driving myself a bit crazy with it.
7. When you repeatedly read that a species is sensitive or shy, there is a good reason for that. Nobody ever said that a sulcata is sensitive or shy. This is not a coincidence.
8. When housing groups of babies, have multiple food and water "stations". When I first move hatching into an enclosure, I have food littering the substrate. I clip mulberry branches or grape vines or lavatera or hibiscus and have tons of that in addition to having all sorts of other food items strewn about. They can't take two steps without running into food, and there is cover and shelter everywhere. I love Mark's ideas about lots of live potted plants, but I have three problems with that: 1. You have to grown your own from long established plants to avoid the store bought systemic pesticides. 2. I suck at growing plants and mine always slowly die, in stark contrast to Mark's beautiful living lush green plants. 3. My tortoises eat anything they can reach, even with multiple full food bowls all around the enclosure, so I use clipped branches instead to accomplish the same thing, and replace them as needed every two or three days.

I hope these tips help other tortoise keepers have much success and happiness.

 

[Sarah2020]

What was sad ending. Hope some survived and you can enjoy the star tortoise? As mentioned check settings and conditions.

 

[TommyTheV]

Thanks guys,

I was so bummed yesterday so I didn't update right away but Crush and Squirt both died yesterday morning. First thing I did was check up on them and found they probably passed during the night.

I upped my soaking to 3x a day the past few days but I guess it was already too late.

For Crush I was very surprised because he was still drinking water the evening before and walking around. His eyes weren't open though. Squirt I was already mentally prepared due to her massive weight loss, no eating or drinking for the past 7+ days.






Backtracking from the beginning the only thing that could think of is what I've read about a lot online with the "Hatchling failure syndrome". They are definitely on the smaller size at 3 months when I bought them - but I knew very little then - but yeah.

If something is wrong with the setup the other 2 wouldn't be as active as they are now. I've kept everything consistent, have multiple thermostats and I've had everything hooked up to a controller so it never gets too hot or too cold.

Humidity is always 80-90% range 24/7. Ambient temp is low 90's during the day and low 80's at night time. Only use CHE and Basking bulbs at 100F+

I am 100% sure its never too cold because they almost never huddle up right under the basking bulb's direct light. Always huddling around if it anything or pretty good distance from the center...

The 2 larger guys almost never are close to the little guys. Plenty of space in a 48"x24" enclosure for 5 little tortoises.

Can't really grasp how "stress" could end up killing them,. They were all eating, doing their thing just fine since June 22nd; they were all gaining weight at that point.

If anything I am more drawn to the conclusion of the the hatchling failure syndrome.

 

[Kayleigh Smith]

Those are adorable tortoises!!! Is that paint on their shells though? I was under the impression that that is not good for them. Was I wrongly informed?

 

[jaizei]

Those are adorable tortoises!!! Is that paint on their shells though? I was under the impression that that is not good for them. Was I wrongly informed?

It's common to use a small mark (nail polish, paint, etc) to tell hatchlings apart.

 

[Tom]

Can't really grasp how "stress" could end up killing them,. They were all eating, doing their thing just fine since June 22nd; they were all gaining weight at that point.

If anything I am more drawn to the conclusion of the the hatchling failure syndrome.

This is a possibility. Where did you get them and how were they started? What incubation media was used? How long were they in the brooder box.

There is one more thing I see in your pics. Moss. Its a tortoise killer. They eat it and it can cause impaction. The smaller they are the more likely it is to block them up. Intestinal impaction would also line up with the symptoms and timeline you've described. Did the plastron get spongy toward the end? If not, it might not have been Breeder Failure Syndrome.

If the breeder incubated on perlite, as so many still do, that could be what killed them. They all eat some of their incubation media when they first hatch. Perlite can kill them weeks later. They seem okay at first, but just fail to thrive and eventually pass. Vermiculite doesn't do this. It passes. You can see it in their first few stools.

 

[enchilada]

I dont think its your fault.
I got one from the same breeder in May (pink dot batch). same symptoms . slowly losing weight and died couple weeks ago .
when i put a flash light against the plastron, i can see the body is turning into "lantern" like , the light go right through . this syndrome is basically death sentence.
I am an experienced keeper, ive raised many from baby to adults, i know what im doing
This "breeder " probably started those hatchlings wrong.
heres an image from internet indicating whats "lantern" syndrome

 

[TommyTheV]

I've opened up a thread asking about this but seems it's still a bit of a mystery. Thanks for clarifying this for me.

What is a "Lantern Condition"?

Hi everyone, A member here private messaged me about this and I searched high and low with no lead as to what it is about. Can anyone shed some light on what to look for, etc? "You might want to take a flashlight against the plastron to check if they are in "lantern" condition. mine just...

tortoiseforum.org

Following up with this, as soon as you mentioned this to me weeks back, all 3 is like the 1st and 2nd photo. Mostly transparent with a little bit of spots here and there. 95% fully transparent. The 5% is probably the poo.

Glad to know it isn't of my doing because the other 2 slightly larger guys are very active and healthy as the day I introduced them.

Just started wrong and my mistake at buying them at 1/2 the weight as they should be around 50+ grams at 2 months old.

My lack of research / buying experience cost me $1,500 😥

 

[enchilada]

I've opened up a thread asking about this but seems it's still a bit of a mystery. Thanks for clarifying this for me.

What is a "Lantern Condition"?

Hi everyone, A member here private messaged me about this and I searched high and low with no lead as to what it is about. Can anyone shed some light on what to look for, etc? "You might want to take a flashlight against the plastron to check if they are in "lantern" condition. mine just...

tortoiseforum.org

Following up with this, as soon as you mentioned this to me weeks back, all 3 is like the 1st and 2nd photo. Mostly transparent with a little bit of spots here and there. 95% fully transparent. The 5% is probably the poo.

Glad to know it isn't of my doing because the other 2 slightly larger guys are very active and healthy as the day I introduced them.

Just started wrong and my mistake at buying them at 1/2 the weight as they should be around 50+ grams at 2 months old.

My lack of research / buying experience cost me $1,500 😥

Someone I know told me someone got this baby radiata , “allegedly “ , from the same breeder .

 

[TommyTheV]

Yikes!

Pretty scary stuff.

Any members could you please chime in with your knowledge on how this could come about?

 

[dd33]

These animals should be sent out for necropsy when this occurs, especially if you have other tortoises or plan on buying more in the future. "Not started right" probably ranks pretty low on causes of death compared to the numerous infectious diseases in tortoises.

 

[Neal]

There's a lot of potential things that could have led to these two dying. I'd just echo the comments on temperature as playing a part in your results. I see the thermometer you're using, but do you have a secondary method of checking the temperatures?

How are the remaining tortoises doing?

 

[TommyTheV]

It is unfortunate but with vet bills in California these days, doing a necropsy on 2 baby Sri Lankans would cost as much as they do just to find out very little to none as I've seen numerous posts on how little to no knowledge vet has on turtles and tortoises these days.

All my other breeds and torts are doing just fine. Even the 2 are eating daily, active and doing their thing and they live in the same enclosure. Temp was a little on the low side at nights for a short period but low 80's shouldn't have killed the tiny ones.

Probably a problem that should resonate most here is, 3 month old hatchlings shouldn't be 30 grams. I've seen lots of posts since my purchase of this trio that by 3 months they should be in the 60 grams range. 1/2 that weight at purchase - didn't know then - should haven't been purchased.

 

[enchilada]

These animals should be sent out for necropsy when this occurs, especially if you have other tortoises or plan on buying more in the future. "Not started right" probably ranks pretty low on causes of death compared to the numerous infectious diseases in tortoises.

no need to do that .
Those “lantern” syndrome tortoise cannot absorb nutrients properly. They slowly die from malnutrition and organ failure

 

[turtlesteve]

You can send a tortoise for necropsy at the University of Florida for about $100 plus whatever shipping costs. Not sure what your local vets charge but I don’t find that to be unreasonable at all.

I agree that there could be a lot of reasons for baby tortoises to die, but they fail into two buckets - either poor husbandry or a disease/pathogen. Sometimes the first leads to the second.

 

[dd33]

There is absolutely a need to send out tortoises for necropsy and @turtlesteve is about right on the price at UF.
If multiple people are getting multiple species of tortoises from a single breeder, as indicated in this thread, and many of them are dying, the cause of death should be determined and IMO disease should be presumed.
Many, if not most tortoise diseases are incurable, and nearly impossible to eradicate once they have been introduced to your enclosures. Every other turtle and tortoise in your collection now, and that you ever buy in the future is at risk with several tortoise diseases out there today. Some diseases even put non turtle and tortoise reptiles in your collection at risk.
I am not trying to be a "sky is falling" type person but there are numerous people who are breeding/selling animals knowing full well they have incurable diseases in their collection. For every breeder that knows there must be tons more that are too cheap or lazy to test and figure the people they sell them to won't bother either.