Live in actual desert, do I really need a heat box for the winter for my Sulcata?

[aztortoisegal]

I don't want to seem argumentative, and perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention to the threads about it, but in researching sulcata natural environments, I'm literally in the desert too. It's going to get cool soon, and his pen is half shade half bright sun all day, he can choose where he hangs out. In the sun it's going to be nearly hot, always warm. If he has a deep enough burrow, won't that suffice? Where would he get a heat box in the wild? Convince me...lol. I'll do it, I want him to be healthy, but this sure seems like a good spot all year for him.

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

where they live its hoot ever day of the year so no need for heat boxes. at the bottom of there burrows it is nice and moist and they spend a lot of time in there burrows. they also naturally soak in the wild.

 

[aztortoisegal]

Aaaahhhh, you're right. Always hot there, no seasons to speak of, unlike here. Yep, forget about that. So southwest desert dwellers, you make boxes too then?

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

people make boxes for there desert torts because the torts in captivity don't usually have a nice stable burrows that they have been using for years.

 

[ascott]

I have CDTs here, not sulcata.....three of the CDTs here have all dug their natural burrows and these are essential here during all months except winter (due to the unpredictable weather, flash flooding and such) and for winter I bring them indoors for brumation, however, sulcata do not brumate in the sense of the word---they will retreat into a burrow to escape above ground weather...however, they are not designed to be in freezing weather nor even what we consider cold weather---they are simply not designed nor destined for that....so, folks will do a shed that is heated or a heated box for winter months....it will take some training time to get the tort use to it and to go to it...but with diligence you can do this for the health of your tort....

 

[aztortoisegal]

Thanks! So the sheds I see that you speak of, do are they confined in those or do they have the ability to go out during the day and sun themselves and eat? This is going to be like spring for most people, our winter is basically a coldish spring, and all the great weeds and plants are growing then. This will just need to be something for him to take cover in at night? Thank you for the help.

 

[DeanS]

First of all...it's always good to have a heated box, shed or bunker for your sulcata...and I'll tell you why! Too many people are wrongly pointed that sulcata are desert dwellers. Actually, two to four months out of the year, the sub-Saharan regions have a rainy season. This is when they come out of their burrows to forage, soak and what have you! Those eight to ten months of blistering heat send them right to their burrows...and they rarely emerge. They gather up huge amounts of vegetation in their gulars and drag it down into their burrow to consume at their leisure. During the rainy seasons, temps are still near 80ºF...so this is cool enough to warrant a heated night box here in the States...even in Arizona.

 

[ascott]

Thanks! So the sheds I see that you speak of, do are they confined in those or do they have the ability to go out during the day and sun themselves and eat? This is going to be like spring for most people, our winter is basically a coldish spring, and all the great weeds and plants are growing then. This will just need to be something for him to take cover in at night? Thank you for the help.

Yes, you are right in the comparison of Arizona to other climates that get crazy distinct seasonal changes....I would take into account any local predator issues you may have...and if you have any that require the tort to be secured in the night hours then you can pick a design that includes a locking door...."in my opinion" I would make the warm house a place that the tort can easily get in and out of at will during the rest of the day...if you look on line here as well as search the web (type in something like outdoor tortoise enclosures sulcata) and do some varied requests for pics then you can get your own idea of what works for your local/tortoise and you....

 

[motero]

Exactly where do you live, and what size is your tortoise? The Sulcatas that survive Phoenix winters have burrows and are larger, like more than 15 inchs. Can they survive with less? Yes, but do you want your tortoise struggling for survival or be happy and healthy and stress free. If it never goes below 60 I wouldn't do any thing for my tortoises. But we get much colder than that.

 

[aztortoisegal]

Extreme southwest, and his burrow is about four feet in length, and bottoms out about two feet underground. Reinforced with curved roof tiles for possible cave ins. I have a plan. Small dog igloo, heater on timer on low. I'll do more investigating tomorrow too. Thank you for all the help! I'll take it all!

 

[aztortoisegal]

Oh shoot, forgot the rest of your question. He's about half foot long, estimated about a year old. So Phoenix is basically my weather, but a tad hotter.

 

[aztortoisegal]

Note to self: Google brumation.

 

[ascott]

Sleep: The state of sleep as described in mammals is characterized by recurrent spontaneous bouts of inactivity with concomitant elevated thresholds of sensory response and greatly reduced cognitive function or unconsciousness (McGinty & Beahm, 1984). Sleep is differentiated from other states of unconsciousness, such as coma, by being readily reversible. Electroencephalographic (EEG) studies show mammals and birds possess two distinct phases of sleep, slow wave sleep (SWS) and paradoxical sleep (PS). Slow wave sleep, also known as non-rapid-eye-movement (NREM) sleep, is associated with synchronized cortical EEG activity of high amplitude and low frequency with occasional high frequency spikes while paradoxical sleep (PS), also known as rapid-eye-movement (REM) or activated sleep, is associated with desynchronized EEG activity of low amplitude very similar to that seen in the awake state (Steriade, et al., 1993). In endotherms, sleep is associated with a progressive decline in brain temperature (Tbr) and metabolism as sleep duration increases (for review, see Heller & Glotzbach, 1977). Sleep also has behavioural correlates such as specific sleep sites or postures and a distinct latency of behavioural response to stimulation (for review, see McGinty & Beahm, 1984).
Many of the criteria that have been used to identify sleep states in mammals and birds do not describe the sleeping condition seen in less encephalized animals such as reptiles. Attempts to quantify reptilian cortical EEG activity using mammalian characteristics (e.g. Huntley, et al., 1977; Meglasson & Huggins, 1979; Huntley & Cohen, 1980) have been relatively unsuccessful. While spike EEG activity homologous with that recorded from mammalian limbic systems does arise from the forebrain of reptiles during sleep (Diaz, et al., 1973; Hartse, et al., 1979), and is absent in both taxa during wakefulness, sleep states in reptiles with EEG profiles comparable to those seen in mammals are usually no longer than a few seconds occurring in bouts of "behavioural sleep" lasting several hours (Huntley & Cohen, 1980; K. Rogers & W.K. Milsom, unpublished data). Sleep in reptiles therefore is usually quantified based on behavioural criteria which include posture, closed eyelids, increased latency of responses to stimulation, and reduced but regular ventilation and cardiac frequencies (Flanigan, 1973, 1974; Flanigan, et al., 1973, 1974; Huntley, et al., 1977; Huntley & Cohen, 1980).

Torpor: Torpor was first used to describe the phenomenon during which many endotherms allow their body temperatures to drop below levels considered normal for sleep, but not as low as the levels typically observed in hibernation (Morrison & Ryser, 1959; Tucker, 1962; MacMillen, 1964). As such, torpor usually involves a drop in Tb greater than 5°C and as much as 15°-20°C below normal, a reduction in resting metabolic rate by more than 25%, and usually occurs on a daily basis during the normal quiescent period of sleep. It may, however, extend over several days (Heller, et al., 1978; Hudson & Scott, 1979; Körtner & Geiser, 2000).
The term torpor has never been defined clearly as it pertains to ectotherms, and this has lead to its free use to describe nearly any quiescent state. There are researchers that subscribe to the idea that torporis simply a function of reduced body temperature (e.g. Hock, 1958) and others that use torpor and hibernation interchangeably to denote the winter quiescent period (e.g. Binyon & Twigg, 1965; Ultsch, 1989). Most researchers have adopted the term in the mammalian sense to describe a profound daily reduction in metabolism due to declining ambient temperature during the inactive phase (e.g. Potter & Glass, 1931; Holzapfel, 1937; Willis, et al., 1956). As such, it involves a daily reduction in metabolism to a level below that predicted by changes in body temperature alone, is readily reversible and involves a greater latency of responsiveness to stimulation than that associated with sleep.

Hibernation: In general usage, to hibernate is to spend the winter in an inactive, sleep-like state and occurs in practically every phylum. For endothermic vertebrates it generally involves a seasonal reduction in body temperature to levels within a few degrees of ambient temperature (Ta). Hibernation occurs in bouts that last for periods of days, weeks, or even months and that are interspersed by short periods of arousal during which the animals spontaneously rewarm (Körtner & Geiser, 2000) and may undertake moderate activity. The duration of these bouts varies from species to species as well as with ambient temperature and position in the winter season (early, mid, late) within species (Twente & Twente, 1965; Twente, et al., 1977; Kenagy, 1981; French 1982; Wilz & Heldmaier, 2000).
Hibernation in ectothermic vertebrates, unfortunately, is not well defined. There do appear, however, to be some common physiological phenomena correlated with hibernation observed in ectotherms and in particular, in reptiles (Bennett & Dawson, 1976.) Preparation for entrance into hibernation begins well before the winter season with many reptiles spontaneously initiating fasting in the fall (Cagle, 1950; Hernandez & Coulson, 1952; Musacchia & Sievers, 1956; Hutton & Goodnight, 1957; Coulson & Hernandez, 1964; Mayhew, 1965; Chabreck & Joanen, 1969; Fitch & von Achen, 1977; Abe, 1983; de Andrade & Abe, 1999). It also involves what has been termed by some as "inverse acclimatization" (Mayhew, 1965; Jacobson & Whitford, 1970; Gatten, 1978; Patterson & Davies, 1978; Johansen & Lykkeboe, 1979; Abe, 1983). Many reptiles increase their metabolic rate to compensate for cold temperatures (Roberts, 1968; Tinkle and Hadley, 1973; Dutton and Fitzpatrick, 1975; Ruby, 1977) and some develop an insensitivity of metabolic rate to changes in body temperature (Gelineo, 1967). This acclimation usually occurs in reptiles inhabiting regions with little or moderate seasonal variation and allows them to continue to function normally at lower temperatures. Inverse acclimatization, or hibernation, on the other hand occurs in reptiles that inhabit regions with more pronounced seasonality and involves active metabolic suppression.

Dormancy: There appears to be some confusion in the literature surrounding the terms dormancy and hibernation, especially when used with respect to reptiles. Many authors interchange the terms and give them equal meaning; others use hibernation to denote a specific type of dormancy (e.g. Mayhew, 1965; Gregory, 1982). Hibernation in common usage refers to winter inactivity while dormancy has no similar temporal qualification. For the purpose of this dissertation, dormancy is used as a general reference to any quiescent state involving reduced metabolic rate, including sleep, torpor, aestivation (a quiescent state associated with excessive heat) and hibernation.

Brumation: Mayhew (1965) proposed the term brumation to define inactivity and physiological changes identified with winter dormancy in ectotherms that occur independent of body temperature, to differentiate it from simple cold-induced inactivity, and hibernation seen in mammals. While some authors have adopted the term (e.g. Gaffney and Fitzpatrick, 1973; Huey & Pianka, 1977; Hutchinson, 1979; Rismiller & Heldmaier, 1982), it has not achieved wide acceptance academically, and most authors overlook the distinction of the state being temperature independent.

 

[motero]

Sounds nice, You should invent a safe efficient thermostatically controlled universal burrow heater. Some thing like a heat pad that curves to the shape of the roof or floor and is water and dig proof. I would buy one.

Seriously you could let him live out the winter in his burrow. But when he gets cold he is just going to stay down there for weeks at a time and wait it out for better weather. You will be worried the whole time, and he will probably be weak and sick when he crawls out to finally sit in the sun.

Or auger a hole directly over the end of his burrow and lower down a ceramic heat emitter with a thermostatic probe of course. he could have a heated burrow after all. As he grows and his burrow gets longer you will have to dig a new hole in the future.

I keep giving myself good ideas.

 

[Tom]

I don't want to seem argumentative, and perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention to the threads about it, but in researching sulcata natural environments, I'm literally in the desert too. It's going to get cool soon, and his pen is half shade half bright sun all day, he can choose where he hangs out. In the sun it's going to be nearly hot, always warm. If he has a deep enough burrow, won't that suffice? Where would he get a heat box in the wild? Convince me...lol. I'll do it, I want him to be healthy, but this sure seems like a good spot all year for him.

1. Sulcatas do not live in the desert. Further, you live in a temperate climate, not a tropical one.
2. There is no "winter" as we know it over there. My friend from Senegal tells me there are but two season over there. "Hot and hotter". Because of this sulcatas are not adapted to cold temperatures like what occur in AZ or here where I am. Some people have large tortoises that survive in burrows over winter there, but it is not good for them. Many of them die this way, even though some seem to survive it winter after winter. The difference in health and vigor between a tortoise that merely survives the winter vs. one that is housed correctly with the correct temps is astounding. I know this because I've done it extensively both ways. I'm not interested in my tortoises barely surviving. I want to give them what they need to thrive.
3. Dog houses, and dogloos are made for endothermic larger mammals. They are not designed for tortoises and as a result they don't work very well for them. The open-ness from the large doors and lack of insulation force you to use larger higher wattage heating elements that run all night. These can really contribute to dehydration, desiccation of the carapace, and in some cases cause burns to the tortoises carapace or plastron, all while not keeping air temps warm enough anyway. I've rescued many "dog house with a light bulb or CHE" tortoises. Yes the dog house solution seems easier and cheaper, but please don't do that to your tortoise. I had to learn this the hard way as a younger man and my tortoises suffered the consequences of my ignorance. I know better now, and I hope I'm able to do what you've ask me to do and convince you. Questions are welcome. Grill me on every detail and assertion made here.


Some examples of boxes that work and work well, for our kind of climate:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

This is my favorite of all and it works perfectly for summer and winter both:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/

And here is the burrow that my larger sulcatas use in the hotter summer months:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-burrows.50846/

 

[aztortoisegal]

I saw something last night about their shells getting burned from lamps, nope, not gonna try that. Those are some killer burrows, very cool. What would your honest opinion be about bringing him in every night, and sleeping in a warm box with a heat pad and substrate of some kind? Since they sleep all night anyways, he doesn't need a lot of room to stretch? Put him back in his pen in the mid morning when he wakes back up? I won't get anything built in time, and I am not leaving it to chance that he'll make it outside. Nay to the dog house too, I think.

 

[mike taylor]

If you have a shipping and receiving company by you go see if they have wooden boxes they are tossing out. Thats what I'm using for my sulcata Dozer .

 

[mike taylor]

Here is a picture .

 

[mike taylor]

Here is the old shipping box now . Just needs paint and power . I have $ 40.00 in it . Cheap and easy . You would maybe have $100.00 because I had the insulation and electrical. Hope this recycling idea works for you also . Poor boys have to get creative.