Lets take a stand for the animals that can't (please read)

[Crush da Baum]

the people who would lobby congress would take away your tortoises... no captive bred OR wild caught. They don’t care, they are zealots who think of humanity as an unnatural plague. These same people convinced California that ferrets would run rampant and kill off every native species. Ferrets are more domesticated than cats. Ferrets can not survive in the wild. They lack the instincts to survive. Just like you’ll never see a pack of wild yorkies in Yellowstone. But California bought it hook, line, and sinker.

but yeah, people are welcome to shoot themselves in the foot. The animal rights wackos will supply the bullets and even load the gun, just to help!

There is absolutely no way that this will contribute to the banning of reptiles.

 

[Crush da Baum]

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive (no captive bred OR better education/conditions for pets being sold).

For THIS petition, it is a good thing, even if it may have some sneaky intent. And if it raises the price of them, GOOD! Maybe ppl will be more serious about buying them. It's just too easy to impulsively buy them right now which leads to the deaths of so so many.

I completely agree. This will also prevent little kids who don't know how to care for these animals, convincing their parents to get a tortoise when they go to PetCo for dog food or something. The fact that they are cheap, do not require papers and are constantly misinformed about them is leading to this.

 

[Crush da Baum]

Your petition does nothing to promote or even allow for the sale of captive bred tortoises. Or, as @LasTortugasNinja points out, to promote better education and husbandry. A push to simply outlaw something without looking at all that would cover is dangerous. I totally agree that wild-caught wholesale exportation is bad. But even in your statement you seem unaware that the far bulk of imported russian tortoises are actually farmed. That in itself raises a whole new set of issues as farming operations can easily lead to wild-caught included in the "farmed" group. That is what needs to be controlled.

The best option is to not buy tortoises you do not know are captive raised. By buying them, you are supporting the practice you are trying to stop. Every chance I get, I strongly promote buying only captive raised tortoises. Through this forum we have the chance to further that as the best option I see.

This is not directed to any sort of government-related organization. The decision-makers are PetCo and Petsmart and in the end it is up to them. We are just showing that we care. This is not a legally binding contract, only a kid trying to make a difference. It will not come down to technicalities, we are only saying we care.

 

[Crush da Baum]

I would agree that we should stop selling wild caught russian tortoises, if there was enough captive bred ones to satisfy the demand for them. If it was a perfect world, there would be no need to import wild caught ones and there would be a huge supply of breeders producing them at a reasonable price. But here in the real world, captive bred babies are out of the price range for a majority of the pet owners out there. The problem really lies with the collectors and exporters of them, and how they are being handled and taken care of, before they are being shipped to the US. I have a breeding pair of them, and if they produced large clutches of eggs; which unfortunately they can't because of their size; then they would be like the sulcata, and there would be no reason to import them.

Hatchlings can be sold for relatively cheap and if it marks the price up a hundred bucks, so what. This will prevent the spur of the moment purchases from parents wanting to make their kid happy without knowing anything on how to care for them.

 

[Crush da Baum]

the people who would lobby congress would take away your tortoises... no captive bred OR wild caught. They don’t care, they are zealots who think of humanity as an unnatural plague. These same people convinced California that ferrets would run rampant and kill off every native species. Ferrets are more domesticated than cats. Ferrets can not survive in the wild. They lack the instincts to survive. Just like you’ll never see a pack of wild yorkies in Yellowstone. But California bought it hook, line, and sinker.

but yeah, people are welcome to shoot themselves in the foot. The animal rights wackos will supply the bullets and even load the gun, just to help!

Yes there are radicals everywhere but this is not a reason to not stop the abuse of animals, and threatening the future of an entire species. That's like saying let's let the starving stray dog die in the gutter because you are afraid the old man next store will not like him. There is no way people showing they care about these animals and do not want them maltreated will contribute to the crazy people who want to ban all pets, and the likely hood of those radicals getting there way is very slim. The congress is not going to tell people they are not allowed to have pets, that is never going to work.

 

[Crush da Baum]

has there ever been a turtle or tortoise species the was endangered , critically endangered , or vulnerable that became near threatened or least concern ? I don't know of any , I do know turtles that have been protected for decades and their populations are not recovering …………. why does asia have such a huge percentage of the critically endangered turtles and tortoises in the world ?

Because there is a lot of impoverished people and it is cheap to pay them a couple of pennies to go out and steal animals from the wild.

 

[turtlesteve]

I completely agree. This will also prevent little kids who don't know how to care for these animals, convincing their parents to get a tortoise when they go to PetCo for dog food or something. The fact that they are cheap, do not require papers and are constantly misinformed about them is leading to this.

Umm... I have a feeling that some of us started as that kid. May just be my opinion, but there's no better way to get more tortoise conservationists, long term, than to get tortoises into kid's hands. We need to focus on making sure that kid learns how to take care of the tortoise. Preventing him from being able to buy one is a horrible idea. I'm all for wanting Petco etc. to source captive bred tortoises, but for that to happen, people need to breed them on a large enough scale. Getting rid of the 4" rule would really help too.

 

[Crush da Baum]

Umm... I have a feeling that some of us started as that kid. May just be my opinion, but there's no better way to get more tortoise conservationists, long term, than to get tortoises into kid's hands. We need to focus on making sure that kid learns how to take care of the tortoise. Preventing him from being able to buy one is a horrible idea. I'm all for pushing Petco etc. to source captive bred tortoises, but for that to happen, people need to breed them on a large enough scale. Getting rid of the 4" rule would really help too.

I know what you mean, I am thirteen and I think I take pretty good care of my torts. It just there is a lot of cases of people just going to get dog food and their 9-year-old girl goes "Momy, Momy I want that" and they wind up putting him in a fish tank without UVB, heat and feeding him iceberg lettuce.

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

This is politics, so I’m done. I said my piece, and I’m leaving this thread. I don’t want to waste precious time I’ll never get back arguing with teenagers. Thank the gods you can’t vote. Peace out!

 

[silverbird]

I was only talking about russian tortoises, in regards to breeders not offering them captive bred for a reasonable price. Sulcatas are the opposite; there is a over supply of them being bred; and luckily sulcatas can not be imported into the US; nor can Leopard tortoises or Bell's hingbacks; due to them having a certain exotic tick. I agree that if the 4 inch law was repealed, or if it only applied to water turtles; and not tortoises; more captive bred tortoises would be available.

 

[Chefdenoel10]

We need to do something about this and I really need everyone's help! When we unite together we can change the lives of so many poor torts!

Sign the Petition

Stop selling wild-caught Russian tortoises

www.change.org

All done. And so much thanks for helping the torts of the world out. You rock!!!!
Now.... sulcatas....!!!???

 

[Crush da Baum]

All done. And so much thanks for helping the torts of the world out. You rock!!!!
Now.... sulcatas....!!!???

It is already illegal to import Sulcatas. Thanks for signing!

 

[Crush da Baum]

I was only talking about russian tortoises, in regards to breeders not offering them captive bred for a reasonable price. Sulcatas are the opposite; there is a over supply of them being bred; and luckily sulcatas can not be imported into the US; nor can Leopard tortoises or Bell's hingbacks; due to them having a certain exotic tick. I agree that if the 4 inch law was repealed, or if it only applied to water turtles; and not tortoises; more captive bred tortoises would be available.

You know the 4-inch law only applies for importing them on not captive-bred hatchlings.

 

[mark1]

Because there is a lot of impoverished people and it is cheap to pay them a couple of pennies to go out and steal animals from the wild.

I don't believe any species of turtle or tortoise has ever recovered to be upgraded by the IUCN ?? i'd think that in itself demonstrates they cannot withstand the environmental disturbances including harvesting that have been put on them …… personally I believe it's just a matter of time for the unprotected species to be in the same situation ......… people just seem to need to actually face a problem before they address it , even ones that are obvious , and they obviously have some control over …… I've lived on the same river for almost my whole life , if there is anyone that doesn't see the difference in the majority of the wildlife populations , turtles , fish , amphibians , from now and 50yrs ago , either you weren't around to see it , or you weren't paying attention ……..

I believe the reason asia has so many critically endangered species is population growth , culture , along with the lack of protection , which includes the lack of ability to protect ……...

I seriously doubt this is sustainable , how is it stopped ???????????

 

[Markw84]

Everywhere you see legislation tried to stop something, it does not work. Especially in conservation of species. Education is the only hope. For example, the Burmese Star in Myanmar. The laws did not stop anything. Putting them in preserves with armed guards did little. Their main effort now that is showing promise is an extensive program to bring school kids and families into the preserve for educational learning about the tortoise. Getting the local population to see the tortoises in a different light.

Many of those responding here including the OP did exactly what they are now trying to stop others from doing. Yet by getting that first tortoise started the education that now sees the value in protecting tortoises. Ironic?

Promote captive born. Repeal the 4" law (which our enforcement official have ruled applies to EVERY turtle or tortoise for sale in the US). Allow true commercial breeding farms. @mark1 - the American Alligator. Once critically endangered now downgraded to Least Concern. Education, and the allowing of commercial farming totally turned that around. Legislation did not.

 

[silverbird]

Good morning Mark1: I am wondering where that picture you posted came from? It is very disturbing and shows the one rotten apple in the barrel. Promote captive breeding in other counties; as they are captive breeding redfoot and cherryheads, in of all places; in Africa and it is being done in South America also. Unfortunately, the 4 inch law doesn't allow them to be imported into the US.

 

[MichaelL]

Not signing. It'd be hypocritical. I have nothing against responsible use of wild caught specimens. Instead, I'd campaign for responsible training of store employees to properly educate the public that the cute little tort will be theirs for 50 to 80 years.

Also, because of the shutting down of backyard breeders, the only place to get certain dog breeds is from people who sell for $1200+ that used to be found as mutts for $20. If the tortoise breeders have no competition, they are free to charge $400-$1000 for their animals. Sorry, but this is a case where activism does more harm than good imho.

I'm not a fan of getting government involved in business. Probably makes me unpopular here, now, but that's my opinion.

Well said.. These are my thoughts as well.

 

[mark1]

Promote captive born. Repeal the 4" law

I agree on the 4" law , it is counterproductive imo ….
the American alligator took government intervention …..given the lifting of current government regulations/laws , my money is on extinction , even at this point , ……. much more profitable to go harvest a 7-10 foot wild alligator than to captive raise a 5-6 footer ........... and the government has mandated/regulated the release of millions of captive raised alligators by ranchers since this began ......... indian stars , that's a government program collaborating with environmental groups . impossible without the government …….... true , the same laws are in place as when their population was decimated , they weren't enough , it took captive production and reintroduction to retain a semblance of a "wild" population , stop that aspect , my money is they will go extinct , just as they were going to ......... there are no recovered species that did not require government intervention/regulations , bald eagle , peregrine falcon , bison , it just can't be done ........

the problem is not government , it's the people who get elected to it.........

"no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american public"
h.l. mencken

 

[silverbird]

I agree that educating pet store employees is a big step in helping to solve the problem. Also I agree when tortoise breeders have no competition; most will charge higher prices. I breed Russians; and only charge alittle more than what I get for imported ones; usually around $125, but have a waiting list about 3-5 years long for babies.

 

[mark1]

Good morning Mark1: I am wondering where that picture you posted came from? It is very disturbing and shows the one rotten apple in the barrel. Promote captive breeding in other counties; as they are captive breeding redfoot and cherryheads, in of all places; in Africa and it is being done in South America also. Unfortunately, the 4 inch law doesn't allow them to be imported into the US.

old pic , I knew at the time , there is a lot more than one rotten apple …… I believe you'll find red foots and yellow foot populations are decreasing in the wild due to bushmeat , loss of habitat and fragmentation ……I believe a study was done by observing the success rate of native hunting .

off the top of my head , I seen a population study , at least as close as they had to one on Russian tortoises , in 1950 it was like as high as 75 per hectare , in 1960 it was down in the 40's per hectare , in 2000 is was in the 20's per hectare ……… to me it appears pretty obvious on what is happening …. the solution ?? hopefully one everyone can live with comes along …...