Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

[Terry Allan Hall]

In the nearly 40 years that I've kept tortoises, I've never brumated/hibernated any...it's absolutely optional in captivity.

Really can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so...I just keep their winter quarters warm and feed them well.

 

[ascott]

it's absolutely optional in captivity.

Yes, it is because they do not have a choice in captivity....realistically they are forced to do what we make them do, right?

Just because we "can" tinker, does not mean we "should"....

can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.

I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO

 

[bellyboo]

Thanks, everyone! I'm very glad I found this forum. It's nice to hear the different opinions and experience of others versus just sorting through info on line.

 

[ascott]

sorting through info on line.

Please do sort through the info on line as well as here on this forum....it is a great injustice to simply utilize the opinion of a few vs reviewing all opinions you can get your hands on....but this is not only for brumation but should be for most care that you take as your own...

IMHO

 

[bellyboo]

sorting through info on line.

Please do sort through the info on line as well as here on this forum....it is a great injustice to simply utilize the opinion of a few vs reviewing all opinions you can get your hands on....but this is not only for brumation but should be for most care that you take as your own...

IMHO

Oh, I most definitely sort though info. I have a list of bookmarks that goes on forever. I'm one of those people who LOVES research. Could have been a professional college student. lol! I simply meant I appreciate the various opinions and experiences. It's one thing to read through facts and whatnot, but it's another to hear real opinions and disputes on the matter.

 

[ascott]

You rock

 

[jaizei]

can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.

I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO

Many reptiles, even those that do not need to do so in their 'natural' range, are able to brumate. It has been mentioned on this very forum; Aldabras, Redfoots, Leopards and Sulcatas. So just because they can doesn't mean we should force them to. It's a tool for survival, and some tortoises just have to use it more often than others.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

it's absolutely optional in captivity.

Yes, it is because they do not have a choice in captivity....realistically they are forced to do what we make them do, right?

Just because we "can" tinker, does not mean we "should"....

can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.

I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO

In nearly 40 years of sharing my life w/ these delightful creatures, not once have I had one walk away from their basking spot or feeding rock to wait by the refrigerator door so as to spend a few months in the vegetable crisper...

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

The only reason I'm hibernating my indoor Russian tortoises is because they refused to eat as winter was coming on. Because a prolonged fast is safer at a lower metabolic rate, I am letting them brumate through the winter in a fridge. In the future, if they do not feel the need to fast indoors, then I will not hibernate them. (Of course, if I ever keep them outdoors full-time, then they will brumate naturally.)

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi all,
I've posted the info below in another post.

Increased mortality rate in non-hibernating temperate tortoise babies

It shows clearly that for hatchlings, it is about 25% mortality if not brumated, vs 5% when brumated.
As the little tortoise get older and stronger, the mortality decreases- but is still present until a certain age. Some will show effects later, some will escape and manage to get strong enough to overcome those effects, apparently for good. Though, it seems that some will still persist, namely in the fertility rate, that is sometimes lower in non-hibernating tortoises.

Of course, an adult will show only longterm effects, maybe health issues, but not necessarily/always due to illness associated/derived from lack of brumation, but for sure from sheer accelereted metabolic rate that leads to accelerated ageing, all that in a relative good health due to proper husbandry (outdoor keeping, natural food).
The deeper longterm effects- that's to be thought of, because these are animals artificially forced into perpetual summer, while they are physiologically able and designed for brumation. It's like kicking the evolution in the direction we want, ignoring ages of adaptation and modification in tortoise physiology in order to brumate.

Terry, GB and others usually advocate non-brumation- at least they see no ill-effects on their own old animals; others just take such points of view not having at least an elementary level of personal experience, just like kids imitating adults.

Others sustain their pro-brumation approach, since they find it natural and even benefic- my case too.

Others are pro-brumation due to the above reason, but managed to prove their point, by experiment/fact; if those statistics show clearly 5 times more mortality in non-brumating vs brumating hatchlings, that should be conclusive, even if older tortoise escaping the critical stage may live and even reproduce well.

I see so much death in hibernation...

I wonder how much death in hibernation can be seen by a single person, and how much of this affirmation is more than just words??
If so much death was experienced first-hand, then that keeper should seriously reconsider his hobby, and start collecting stamps or... stuff.
If it's about testifying about other keeper's loses, how can a person be sure that brumation was the cause, since one cannot guarantee that every keeper of a hibernating-dead tortoise had done it right, and no illness was involved? Most don't even know too much about their own tortoise's hidden problems, not to mention for other one's animals!

Personally, I wouldn't brumate an 100% indoors kept tortoise. I would be affraid, since I suppose that is debilitating for a temperate tortoise to be kept in tropical regime. Maybe the bulk of death during brumation were indoor tortoises, experiencing ZERO tonifying temperature swing, sunlight, rain, grazing weeds etc.?? If so, I would classify those deaths due to improper husbandry, not due to brumation- brumation could have been only the moment when the tortoise systems/immunity crashed.

Keep in mind that I am a beginner too, and lost zero tortoises in brumation- that may be not conclusive, but I had all type of tortoises: good shape, good weight; good shape, but underweight; old and abused; new imports (horsfieldi) without even a thin growth line for that year and full of worms (serious trauma from being on the road and pityful enclosures at least for the year I bought them) etc.- offered them either full brumation or a shortened one. All emerged fine and hungry.
This year, experiencing hatchling brumation and delayed (my fault) brumation- see Greek Boettgeri story below. After 6 weeks, all ok.

Bottom line:
If lack of brumation affects only hatchling and youngs, it's enough demonstration that brumation should be regarded as mandatory.
Older tortoises can take serious abuse and mistreat, and still live (seen that in illegal wild-caught natives here, animals kept by true imbecils- real survival wonders), so the fact that they still live without only brumation is not by far a wonder, not even an argument- they receive all the other benefits from a good husbandry.


Gaddy,

My 3 small Greek Boettgeri were planned for overwintering, receiving them in August. Since they insisted to eat less and hide more, I finally given up and, after hidrating them well for a week, I gradually placed them to cooler places, and now the beasts are in a 6*C sleep. No mood for building special enclosure, picking debile weeds from the dried grass (severe drought and no winter here ), no need for another 3 babies to care for, at the moment- and since they proved to be quite fit and stubborn (even underweight), well, I let them do their thing starting from this very winter. Slightly moist cocofiber/soil mix, sleep well, see you in Spring (in fact, every 3-4 weeks, at humidity check, but only I see them, they keep sleeping).

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

CactusVinnie, you really should be more specific about explaining how your feelings about brumation are simply your opinions, not iron-clad facts...a lot of newbies may not yet be able to tell the difference.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Terry, no need to explain that, it's irelevant what I think for myself. Not my opinion- I do not need opinions in that matter, and also do not offer my opinions as rules for others- only nature's opinion.
And I already explained all in my 2 most recent posts.
I posted the link with those iron-clad facts you keep asking me- and only me; I hope that 1600 tortoise subjects are enough for your acceptance as a statistic- numbers= cold, objective facts you required.

If 1600 tortoises are not enough, please you do the Froggies work on a 10x scale, to be relevant this time, and let us know the results. Just between you and me, I would be satisfied with the same 1600 tortoise subjects, but I am affraid that the results you should appear with will bring nothing new- brumation drastically reduce hatchling and young tortoise mortality. After all, those French guys are not by far neophytes in tortoise keeping.

So, just click on the specified link and tell me if that brings some changes in your opinion. If you don't understand French, no problem: just look at the graphs and see the results. If any questions, I can explain within my limits.

 

[ascott]

Hey Fabian, nice to see you check back in.... I too am excited about the link you shared....

 

[CactusVinnie]

can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.

I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO

Many reptiles, even those that do not need to do so in their 'natural' range, are able to brumate. It has been mentioned on this very forum; Aldabras, Redfoots, Leopards and Sulcatas. So just because they can doesn't mean we should force them to. It's a tool for survival, and some tortoises just have to use it more often than others.

Jaizei, it is not the same thing!! All these tortoise will die if subjected to a temperate climate winter; the fact they are able to reduce their metabolism to cope with the seasonal changes of a TROPICAL climate it's a totally different matter. They are adapted to take the challenges only from a warm climate, from equatorial to warm subtropical.
It is frost in Sahara; in Kenya; even in Pantanal! It barely lasts 1-2 hours. The tropical winter may bring even longer frosts, or dull coolish days, and the tortoises naturally stay hidden, sleeping. Even if they burry underground to avoid that short-lived cold, temperatures there are over 20*C, indiferent to the swings occuring above ground.
If air temperatures in a tropical area oscillate between -2*C and 45*C over an entire year, at only 20 cm deep it will be only between, let's say, 20*...30*C. In such warm burrows, obviously it is not about the same brumation we talk here about! One single month at 5*C I bet that kills or make seriously sick an Aldabra, Sulcata, Redfoot or Leopard. Not to mention longer or colder, including even freeze episodes!
So, they don't belong to the same category, and a parallel cannot be made.

Just for my information: how much cold and for how long had those 4 tropical species endured, in their brumation in captivity? I have no interest in these species and no more than a shallow knowledge about them, so I am very curious what they can take in a colder climate.

Cheers!

 

[Yvonne G]

Bellyboo (Isabelle):

You posted this thread in the "Hermanns" section, however we have gone far afield and talked about brumation (hibernation) in general for all species. Do you mind if I move it to "General Tortoise" topic?

 

[ascott]

Great link...was able to use my translater and great and compelling information.....I have to admit that I was a bit uncomfortable with offering brumation for hatchlings and young torts...this link gives good basis for argument on that thought....not trying to start an argument, simply saying I will have to read more on the information given on the link...great stuff, thank you.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry, no need to explain that, it's irelevant what I think for myself. Not my opinion- I do not need opinions in that matter, and also do not offer my opinions as rules for others- only nature's opinion.
And I already explained all in my 2 most recent posts.
I posted the link with those iron-clad facts you keep asking me- and only me; I hope that 1600 tortoise subjects are enough for your acceptance as a statistic- numbers= cold, objective facts you required.

If 1600 tortoises are not enough, please you do the Froggies work on a 10x scale, to be relevant this time, and let us know the results. Just between you and me, I would be satisfied with the same 1600 tortoise subjects, but I am affraid that the results you should appear with will bring nothing new- brumation drastically reduce hatchling and young tortoise mortality. After all, those French guys are not by far neophytes in tortoise keeping.

So, just click on the specified link and tell me if that brings some changes in your opinion. If you don't understand French, no problem: just look at the graphs and see the results. If any questions, I can explain within my limits.

Yes, I did read that report and have considered it for what value it has, which is why I point out the opinions in that report are not iron-clad facts, merely opinions, so that our newbies won't accidently kill their pets when mistaking such opinions for iron-clad facts.

This, otoh, is one of those iron-clad facts: When one takes an animal out of the wild, it is then in captivity, and it is flat-out impossible to replicate every aspect of the wild in a captive state...and thinking one can do otherwise is simply foolish conceit.

It's an entirely different scenario, wild-bred/born vs. captive-bred/born, and it's helpful to remember that.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi, Angela!!

Just seen your reply! Couldn't let you and the overwintered tortoises alone ! Glad you find it useful- it is enlightening indeed!

Yes, that study made me decide no compromise in offering equal treatment to my hatchlings. In fact, they went underground even earlier then adults- due to their small bodymass, they should be ready and deep enough when serious cold arrives. I admit that once, when the Ibera eggs were just laid and I was planning the future hatchling treatment, it crossed my mind to shorten their hibernation to 3 months.
I thought that not offering them the multiple options found in the wild should be compensate with a shortened brumation or something else... Observing them almost daily, my fears dissapeared- they knew better, and I congratulate myself for not bringing them indoors, not even for a day. Just rain protection over their enclosure, when frosts arrived.

Read again the article, and it confirmed that my natural approach is not by far risky/dangerous- in fact, one trying to make their life easier, he could easy do a great amount of harm to their health, even killing them. Dangerous is the unnatural, and the fact that the younger the tortoises, the more loses when skipping/shortening brumation rang a bell to me- in fact, nothing new under the sun.

I don't master English that well to explain it, but it is about the primary needs of a creature- when it's small, there is no compromise in the conditions they need, or else they usually suffer/die. The wide range of various parameters is easier to cope with when larger and older. Even if these initial conditions are harsh in our standards, it is simply natural for them, and changing those conditions too much ("softening" them) means affecting some physiological mechanisms; at an young age, it may be too much for them to compensate, since they are not yet that able to meet challenges they are not adapted/projected for. At hatchling level, they have enough energy to handle the "usual", no matter how tough seems to us, but no extra energy to handle the "unusual", no matter how mild we find it. There are conversions and energy redirectionings needed to survive when a temperate hatchling is subjected to continuous summer conditions, they should "burn" when their genes dictate to "rest", and that results in exhaustion and hormonal imballance.

I bet that some will say "well, ok, it's just survival of the fittest"- I would reply: let's see who is the fittest after a full brumation, since we are talking here about temperate tortoises, not tropicals. If they say "natural selection", well, they will surely select the ones more inclined to take a tropical climate, not the ones adapted/requiring a good, ole, long brumation.
What next? The cold-hardiest of Sulcatas ?? The cold-tender Russian? The wingless bat? The winged mouse?

I'd say let all of these creatures like they are designed to be: warm climate Sulcata, frost-tolerant Russians, bats with wings and wingless mice... enough perversion and unnatural in the human world, no need to extend it even more than we already did it on the animals...

 

[ascott]

The wide range of various parameters is easier to cope with when larger and older. Even if these initial conditions are harsh in our standards, it is simply natural for them, and changing those conditions too much ("softening" them) means affecting some physiological mechanisms

Your English is grand. This I believe as well. I know that folks will say that the ONLY reason that certain species of tortoise brumate is due to the weather onset and lack of food, while this is of course part of what I believe to be true, there are so many other things that occur in nature that I believe it is not correct to replicate only the parts of the life cycle that make us humans feel good about doing...a life cycle is just that, in its complete form. Tortoise that brumate have a life cycle and that includes brumating...and to simply pull that evolutionary piece out of the pie will leave a void---this void will catch up somehow...

I would not advise someone who is new to tortoise care to claim to know everything, to act as though they know everything...but to rather strive to learn everything they can. Brumation is a viable and necessary cycle of certain tortoise species and to deny it, IMHO, is not correct. I have said it before, we owe it to our tortoise to know all aspects of their life and to try to replicate each the best that we can....and to not fear the learning of each of these cycles...

 

[Yvonne G]

I didn't read the article, but getting the gist of what you and Angela are talking about reminds me that sometimes tortoises that hatch in the ground (personal experience with box turtles here , not tortoises) will over-winter in the nest and not come up until the ground warms up in the spring. This is quite natural and normal.

I have a hard time keeping baby tortoises alive the first year, and have always sent them up to my sister to head start for me. I wonder if allowing them to brumate might make them hardier.