Hundreds Hundreds and Hundreds of Rads!

[N2TORTS]

Awesome ……now that’s what I’m talking about!
Thanks Eric ....

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I count 4 flipped tortoises in that last picture

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

And radiatas are not that harder to breed than ploughshares...

I really love the way you put that. You noticed which one is inferred as easier to breed?

I tend to agree.

At least one American tortoises conservation 'mover and shaker' blew it by calling radiated the new sulcata, truth or not, he cut himself on the fund raising side of things with that comment.

But on the other side of the semi corrupt NGOs bilking of widowed millionaires funding conservation for the world, if not from here where else?

Maybe the idea of a sexy tortoise like the raidiated also gathers funds for conservation of the not so sexy tortoises, like say - well, to me they are all sexy, but lets say forsteni (just a weird elongata, right?)

The world as a self interested entity wins with the illegal bred radiatated, and the millionaire widows funding their salvation.

Unfortunately the natural place for radiateds is screwed.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

The world as a self interested entity wins with the illegal bred radiatated, and the millionaire widows funding their salvation.

Unfortunately the natural place for radiateds is screwed.

I like how you put words, Will.

Many claims are ridiculous. Lets put pangshura species as another case. Rare species? CITES appendix I? They are so plentiful in India, and also relatively easy to breed. But well, they are beautiful and good for advertisement!

Things will always go that way. Those organizations will always need to spend some for their annual finance report and they are world wide operated organizations anyway. At least that what they claim.

For my country's case. The real problem is not in forsteni's conservation, but how you can stop people destroying their natural habitat for more lands and that's it. The problem lies in providing housing and agriculture space to our fast growth population.

People might need to spend sometime in these south east asian countries to know the real fact. Just like where you used to live, Will.

 

[bouaboua]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many. Some of them are so nice.

 

[sonykurniawan]

More pics please... Show us your collection

 

[hanzel]

got this picture from one of tortoise freak few days ago and said there was more than 190 Rad.. yup! 190... 7-12cm (3-5inch)

he send me few Rad pics which are totally drooled me

i don't know if i can write down the price, since these awesome awesome Rad are not mine.. i wish!

wow u're exactly right with numbers brotha,coz i've seen this radiated for myself

en i think between almost 200 rad,this is number 1

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[Acanthurus]

Followed a link here from thereptilereport. Initially wasn't going to reply, but in the end thought that someone needed to point out how naive many of your comments are.

I realise this will fall of deaf ears to many of you who have already replied to this thread, as I'm sure a level of denial helps you with your pursuits in this hobby. Reading this I doubt any of you have actually been to Madagascar, yet you talk as though you are experts on the country. I don't claim to be an expert, but a least I can say I have been there (multiple times). I have seen radiated tortoises in the wild, which were already becoming rare when I went there 10 years ago. Last time I returned I didn't see any in the wild around Berenty, where they have taken almost all the remaining animals into captivity to give them at least some form of protection. When I travelled further west where they had previously been in reasonable numbers on the way to Faux Cap I saw only 2.

Speaking to those who are actually involved in their conservation the situation is dire. The government has been in turmoil since the military coup 3 years ago. Whilst tortoises are eaten in some parts, the main threat in most places is the illegal pet trade. Unfortunately it seems much of the smuggling is done with the full knowledge of, and sometimes even by government officials. There has been incidences where people have been caught, including one government official with hundreds of tortoises stuffed into his luggage, but few if any prosecutions.

The main market for the smuggled animals is Asia, where they are processed, before being relabelled as captive bred animals and on-sold into the pet trade. There is massive amounts of money involved, including considerable investment in paying off officials, and getting the animals out of the country.

I know many of you feel comfort in your denial of your role in what seems to be the almost certain extinction of this species in the wild. The truth of the matter is that the market is driven by the high price collectors are willing to pay. Your demand for these is directly causing their extinction.

If you have bought an imported tortoise the simple truth is that you almost certainly have dirt on your hands. Not much can be done about that now, however before you think about buying that next animal maybe consider spending the money on a trip to see them in the wild and support those who are trying to save them. It's really not that difficult to get to, and it really is one of the most amazing places on this planet.

 

[Yvonne G]

Followed a link here from thereptilereport. Initially wasn't going to reply, but in the end thought that someone needed to point out how naive many of your comments are.

I want to welcome you to the Forum! You sound like you will be a valued member here, and I hope you stay and continue to talk with us.

I don't know anything about Madagascar, or the radiated tortoises, so I can't join in to the conversation, but I really don't think your comments are fair to us. Most of our members are in the States, where the C.I.T.E.S rules are followed. So buying a radiated tortoise is a legal prospect, and the animals are captive bred here in the States. We do have a few members in the eastern countries, and it seems the C.I.T.E.S. tortoises are more readily available to people in those countries. We don't encourage illegal activities, but we do offer help and advice on how to care for the tortoises once those members have obtained them.

 

[JeffG]

That is great information, and while I don’t dispute any of it, it seems that there are two different things going on. The wild population of radiata has been nearly eliminated, while the captive population seems to have exploded.

In my opininion that is a horrible outcome, BUT, if radiata are currently being produced by the thousands in captivity, wouldn’t the natural progression lead to the price for them dropping? If that happens won’t it become less appealing for poachers to collect and smuggle them? Eventually if the price gets low enough is possible that the smugglers would move on to more profitible species?

I don’t have much hope that this will happen fast enough so that there are still sustainable numbers in the wild, but with the conservation efforts that are currently going on maybe there is a slight chance that they won’t become extinct in the wild.

The advice about considering the impact before purchasing any wild caught animal is good. In my opinion there are times when buying wild caught is acceptable. If it weren’t for WC animals in the past none of of would have the oportunity to keep even the captive bred animals we do now, but it is important to consider the well-being of the species before purchasing WC. Especially when CBB are available.

 

[Tom]

Followed a link here from thereptilereport. Initially wasn't going to reply, but in the end thought that someone needed to point out how naive many of your comments are.

I realise this will fall of deaf ears to many of you who have already replied to this thread, as I'm sure a level of denial helps you with your pursuits in this hobby. Reading this I doubt any of you have actually been to Madagascar, yet you talk as though you are experts on the country. I don't claim to be an expert, but a least I can say I have been there (multiple times). I have seen radiated tortoises in the wild, which were already becoming rare when I went there 10 years ago. Last time I returned I didn't see any in the wild around Berenty, where they have taken almost all the remaining animals into captivity to give them at least some form of protection. When I travelled further west where they had previously been in reasonable numbers on the way to Faux Cap I saw only 2.

Speaking to those who are actually involved in their conservation the situation is dire. The government has been in turmoil since the military coup 3 years ago. Whilst tortoises are eaten in some parts, the main threat in most places is the illegal pet trade. Unfortunately it seems much of the smuggling is done with the full knowledge of, and sometimes even by government officials. There has been incidences where people have been caught, including one government official with hundreds of tortoises stuffed into his luggage, but few if any prosecutions.

The main market for the smuggled animals is Asia, where they are processed, before being relabelled as captive bred animals and on-sold into the pet trade. There is massive amounts of money involved, including considerable investment in paying off officials, and getting the animals out of the country.

I know many of you feel comfort in your denial of your role in what seems to be the almost certain extinction of this species in the wild. The truth of the matter is that the market is driven by the high price collectors are willing to pay. Your demand for these is directly causing their extinction.

If you have bought an imported tortoise the simple truth is that you almost certainly have dirt on your hands. Not much can be done about that now, however before you think about buying that next animal maybe consider spending the money on a trip to see them in the wild and support those who are trying to save them. It's really not that difficult to get to, and it really is one of the most amazing places on this planet.

You paint a very bleak picture here. I have never been to Madagascar, BUT we had had several presentations in the last few years from conservation biologists who SPECIALIZE in Madagascar tortoises and having been going there annually for more than 20 years. Here is the gist of what they have told us: Population estimates of 20-30 years ago were greatly over exaggerated due to faulty counting technique. There has been SOME decline in the wild population over the last 10-15 years, BUT the wild population is still estimated at around 6.5 million by conservative estimates. According to these scientist types, the species is in no immediate danger of extinction in the wild, although they acknowledge some obvious problem with what the humans on Madagascar are doing.

When these numbers are considered, and the tremendous amount of captive breeding success that is had all over the globe with this species, I don't think the species is in all that bad of shape. When compared to many other species of Asian turtles and a few other tortoise species, I think the radiated tortoise is in pretty good shape, and it causes me no concern at all if some keepers in Asia or anywhere else wish to keep and breed them.

My ears are not deaf. I hear you. But you must realize that the story you tell is vastly different than the story told by the professional people actually working with this species in the wild.

 

[FLINTUS]

Tom, might want to edit your post, Madagascar is not in Asia lol!
But you are right, there is loads of captive breeding of these guys. I saw so many of these in Mauritius, and there are plenty of breeders in Europe and N.America. Most of the wild-collecting goes to(as acanthurus) illegal markets. BUT, what he did not say was that very few of these markets are in Europe and N.America. You might get a few in their native range, but mainly they are in Asia-specifically China, Malaysia, Thailand etc. not really the Middle East, Russia and India- where even Tesco sells turtles for consumption.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think Tom was referring back to Acanthurus's post where people in the Asian countries were getting the tortoises illegally.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Followed a link here from thereptilereport. Initially wasn't going to reply, but in the end thought that someone needed to point out how naive many of your comments are.

I realise this will fall of deaf ears to many of you who have already replied to this thread, as I'm sure a level of denial helps you with your pursuits in this hobby. Reading this I doubt any of you have actually been to Madagascar, yet you talk as though you are experts on the country. I don't claim to be an expert, but a least I can say I have been there (multiple times). I have seen radiated tortoises in the wild, which were already becoming rare when I went there 10 years ago. Last time I returned I didn't see any in the wild around Berenty, where they have taken almost all the remaining animals into captivity to give them at least some form of protection. When I travelled further west where they had previously been in reasonable numbers on the way to Faux Cap I saw only 2.

Speaking to those who are actually involved in their conservation the situation is dire. The government has been in turmoil since the military coup 3 years ago. Whilst tortoises are eaten in some parts, the main threat in most places is the illegal pet trade. Unfortunately it seems much of the smuggling is done with the full knowledge of, and sometimes even by government officials. There has been incidences where people have been caught, including one government official with hundreds of tortoises stuffed into his luggage, but few if any prosecutions.

The main market for the smuggled animals is Asia, where they are processed, before being relabelled as captive bred animals and on-sold into the pet trade. There is massive amounts of money involved, including considerable investment in paying off officials, and getting the animals out of the country.

I know many of you feel comfort in your denial of your role in what seems to be the almost certain extinction of this species in the wild. The truth of the matter is that the market is driven by the high price collectors are willing to pay. Your demand for these is directly causing their extinction.

If you have bought an imported tortoise the simple truth is that you almost certainly have dirt on your hands. Not much can be done about that now, however before you think about buying that next animal maybe consider spending the money on a trip to see them in the wild and support those who are trying to save them. It's really not that difficult to get to, and it really is one of the most amazing places on this planet.

Seems like you trying to sound wise and knowledgeable while proofing to be stone headed and ignorant at same time. At the end of your post, you just try to dig more pocket money for those conservation organizations. I more respect people like Will, who is willing to understand other countries condition and not giving wild judgement of the people, moreover the hobbyists here. You absolutely know nothing of Asian countries, just the things you read somewhere over the internet, which seems already much clouded your mind.

No one claiming to be Madagascar expert here, and we just show you proof that those torts are not "as rare" as some people claiming (Tom's post above clearly shows what other experts think of that "rare" judgement.

Since you go there several times, you should know that the country is so poor and so deep in turmoil now, and you still expect their people to care for animals who can serve as protein source? You wanna be a tortoise God and save them? Well, why don't you try to feed those millions of hungry people there first before trying to educate them to conserve those tortoises and also their natural habitat.

Extinction of animal in the natural habitat is 100% acceptable by me with the current country's condition. What I seek is reintroducing them back to their natural habitat, when time is right.

---

I think Tom was referring back to Acanthurus's post where people in the Asian countries were getting the tortoises illegally.

Yvonne, that is Acanthurus perception and can be very poisonous to members who know nothing of the imported tortoises here.

Ask him to show proof that those tortoises are coming from illegal poaching. PROOF and not mere saying....

I see more and more tortoises imported here in my country. Sulcata, pardalis, radiata, red foot, and aldabra. Just almost all kind of species available there. And if we can import aldabra from Mauritius, do you think we also cannot import those hatchling radiata from there as well?

 

[FLINTUS]

The photos on the web don't exactly loom like 'legal' markets. While it is definitely in the culture and some are legal, it does appear that there are also quite a lot of illegal smuggling.
I have no doubt you can get radiata from Mauritius, I saw plenty of babies there so obviously a much lower price, but there is without a doubt tortoise trafficking going into parts of Asia.
Why do you say you find extinction 'acceptable'? More so, what do you mean by the country's condition? It is very hard to reintroduce species to a habitat, it has already failed numerous times all over the world.

 

[EricIvins]

That is great information, and while I don’t dispute any of it, it seems that there are two different things going on. The wild population of radiata has been nearly eliminated, while the captive population seems to have exploded.

In my opininion that is a horrible outcome, BUT, if radiata are currently being produced by the thousands in captivity, wouldn’t the natural progression lead to the price for them dropping? If that happens won’t it become less appealing for poachers to collect and smuggle them? Eventually if the price gets low enough is possible that the smugglers would move on to more profitible species?

I don’t have much hope that this will happen fast enough so that there are still sustainable numbers in the wild, but with the conservation efforts that are currently going on maybe there is a slight chance that they won’t become extinct in the wild.

The advice about considering the impact before purchasing any wild caught animal is good. In my opinion there are times when buying wild caught is acceptable. If it weren’t for WC animals in the past none of of would have the oportunity to keep even the captive bred animals we do now, but it is important to consider the well-being of the species before purchasing WC. Especially when CBB are available.

Even being mass produced, demand FAR exceeds supply globally. Price is not going to drop anytime soon. Being status symbols, price actually tends to rise. Give it 10 or 15 years; Demand and prices may drop. OR it may not. Too many variables to consider.

The sad part is the fact that the US stifles any kind of effort to bring these animals to the fore front of Herpetoculture. They are the perfect "Pet" Tortoise. More so than any Leopard or Redfoot....

---

The photos on the web don't exactly loom like 'legal' markets. While it is definitely in the culture and some are legal, it does appear that there are also quite a lot of illegal smuggling.
I have no doubt you can get radiata from Mauritius, I saw plenty of babies there so obviously a much lower price, but there is without a doubt tortoise trafficking going into parts of Asia.
Why do you say you find extinction 'acceptable'? More so, what do you mean by the country's condition? It is very hard to reintroduce species to a habitat, it has already failed numerous times all over the world.

The countries condition is deplorable. Many, if not all of its natural resources will be gone in 10 or 15 years. The rights to those resources have been sold off for awhile now. At this point, there is no hope for the majority of endemic species on the Island. Some can take change and fragmented habitat. Most will not...

 

[Yellow Turtle]

The photos on the web don't exactly loom like 'legal' markets. While it is definitely in the culture and some are legal, it does appear that there are also quite a lot of illegal smuggling.
I have no doubt you can get radiata from Mauritius, I saw plenty of babies there so obviously a much lower price, but there is without a doubt tortoise trafficking going into parts of Asia.
Why do you say you find extinction 'acceptable'? More so, what do you mean by the country's condition? It is very hard to reintroduce species to a habitat, it has already failed numerous times all over the world.

Which web are you talking about? The pictures we are discussing are the ones posted on this thread and they are taken by simple phone camera to be shared with fellow hobbyists in my country. How would you define those are legal or not when all of them are of the similar size.

And I never say there is no smuggling going to any Asian countries, I only debate over "rarity" and "eating habit" of that particular species.

Extinction? I love tortoise but I make my point of view pretty clear. I prefer to spend those funds to save the country and people living inside. So you would prefer famine people dying over eating and selling tortoise to buy food, it seems to me.

 

[sonykurniawan]

This thread is getting more interesting yet confusing.

---

"Your demand for these is causing the extinction" ---- sorry but i think i cant agree with this sentence. I buy radiateds cause i want to give them the best care that i possibly and humanly could.

 

[FLINTUS]

The photos on the web don't exactly loom like 'legal' markets. While it is definitely in the culture and some are legal, it does appear that there are also quite a lot of illegal smuggling.
I have no doubt you can get radiata from Mauritius, I saw plenty of babies there so obviously a much lower price, but there is without a doubt tortoise trafficking going into parts of Asia.
Why do you say you find extinction 'acceptable'? More so, what do you mean by the country's condition? It is very hard to reintroduce species to a habitat, it has already failed numerous times all over the world.

Which web are you talking about? The pictures we are discussing are the ones posted on this thread and they are taken by simple phone camera to be shared with fellow hobbyists in my country. How would you define those are legal or not when all of them are of the similar size.

And I never say there is no smuggling going to any Asian countries, I only debate over "rarity" and "eating habit" of that particular species.

Extinction? I love tortoise but I make my point of view pretty clear. I prefer to spend those funds to save the country and people living inside. So you would prefer famine people dying over eating and selling tortoise to buy food, it seems to me.

I think the thread is not just debating those pictures now, but the whole radiata importation/exportation/extinction problem-that's how I've read the posts after the 1st page at least.
To reply to your last paragraph, Madagascar is not as poor as a lot of countries. It still has tourism and plentiful natural resources to use-although as discussed that is causing loss of habitat. It's a bit of a catch 22. Due to poverty, tortoises are being eaten, but to get people out of poverty, funds that could be used for conservation will have to be used for people. However, from what I believe-correct me if I'm wrong here-, while some tortoises are eaten there, it is not 'in the culture' to eat them. Tortoises eaten per person, there will be a lot more in some of the Asian countries.
Eric, I know Madagascar is struggling in terms of conservation. I was referring to why due to the country's condition Yellow Turtle thinks it is acceptable for them to become extinct. Surely it is better to fix a problem, rather than say 'its already being destroyed, let's move on and try and protect somewhere else'. All through history that has happened, and most of the time it hasn't worked. In some ways, until recently, that was what happened in Mauritius-which of course saw the extinction of some very remote, isolated, species.
I will just point out I am not in favor of wild collecting, except for species rarely bred in captivity, or if there has been too much inbreeding.

---

"Your demand for these is causing the extinction" ---- sorry but i think i cant agree with this sentence. I buy radiateds cause i want to give them the best care that i possibly and humanly could.

Where was that?
I do agree though. Very few wild caught radiata make it into European or N.American collections, as you guys have to have permits don't you, and in the UK we have A10's which means they can only be CB-we also have them for Hermanni, Graeca, Egyptians, etc.. The only ones which do will be the few smuggled in illegally and then somehow the person applied for a document.

 

[monsteraldabra]

@sony: totally agree!!
Save tortoises - Buy them - take care of them- breed them - just dont't eat them!. Period.
@yellow turtle : say HAIL TO THE TORTO GOD!! hahaha