Help picking out a tortoise species?

[ben32hayt]

Hi, so I built a 6x6 indoor tortoise pen and a 10x10 outdoor tortoise pen. I live in New York so I insulated the indoor pen. I want to start breeding tortoises and I was thinking something that is over 10' but no bigger than a Burmese mountain tortoise. My price range per tortoise is 250. I am hoping to get 3-4 tortoises and build from there. If you guys have any advice it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
-Ben

 

[wellington]

If you have the means to heat an outdoor large shed/enclosure for them then a larger species would be okay, in my opinion. If you don't, I would suggest staying with smaller species, like Greeks, hermanns, elongated, Russians, just to name a few.

 

[Tom]

For enclosures that size, I'd get greeks or russians. One male and two or three females. Have a back up plan to house them all separately, as they don't always get along.

 

[ben32hayt]

Ok I planning to start out with the hatchlings in a 6x6 pen I have room to at least double the pen in size for when they are adults. Do the same species still apply? Thank you guys for the help!
-Ben

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It's not usual that individuals of the Testudo genus will get 10 inches long, not impossible, but the average size is smaller.

Indotestudo species are also not giants, however it is usual for a elongated tortoise to get about 10 inches long as an older adult.

And Redfoots, though there are giants out there, many types or races hit that target size to slightly larger

Some Stars get this big or slightly bigger, but unlike the others mentioned, they are more expensive than your limit, which I am thinking you mean per tortoise.

There are others still, but more $$.

Will

 

[cemmons12]

I agree with Tom on this thread.

 

[tortadise]

Agreed with said above. Elongated would not fare well in that size enclosure as an adult. Best would be tesudo for sure. I'd go with Hermann or Greeks. They can show combative nature in males, but not as brutal as Russians can be. Good luck in your endeavors.

I also would recommend to section off part of that enclosure to a smaller size for a hatchling. Tortoises are animals of habit. It will prove more difficult to start a baby off in such a large enclosure for just wee ones. As the animal you choose starts to become more juvenile and past the "fragile" baby stage you can keep expanding it until it reaches the 6x6 dimensions you provide.

 

[ben32hayt]

Hi thanks everyone for the advice so far I have decided the eastern hermann tortoise. But I was also wondering about pancake tortoises and marginates I would prefer those over the hermann. Once again thanks
-Ben

 

[wellington]

I just noticed you already have a star, RF and hermann, why not go with one of those?

 

[ben32hayt]

I would love to breed stars or red foots but stars are expensive and the redfoots get to large. Also I can't find any western Hermann's for sale which makes matters even more difficult. So I narrowed it down to three eastern Hermann's, pancakes, and marginated. I am also debated whether to just put a leopard or two in there. Thanks
- Ben

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Re: RE: Help picking out a tortoise species?

Hi, so I built a 6x6 indoor tortoise pen and a 10x10 outdoor tortoise pen. I live in New York so I insulated the indoor pen. I want to start breeding tortoises and I was thinking something that is over 10' but no bigger than a Burmese mountain tortoise. My price range per tortoise is 250. I am hoping to get 3-4 tortoises and build from there. If you guys have any advice it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
-Ben

This size thing you use as a criteria is not coming out in your further posts. Burmese mountain tortoises, are the fifth largest species, preceded by leopards, sulcatas, and the two island giants. The rare individual yellow foot comes in sixth. This alone could be debated to death, but this is a fairly true order of sizes of animals.

On the other side of your size criteria is BIGGER than 10 inches. Well, of testudo, again with rare exception, you find western hermann's and marginated tortoises meeting that size range.

Prices, well an occasional Indian star with a odd scute pattern can be found for about 300, maybe less. Normal scute Indians as low as 350, usually though 400, 450.

Redfoots, with an "average" size to 12 inches, and price well below 250 hit your criteria.

As often stated here on TFO, just a pair, or three animals, can result in stress with a subordinate animal. Bring the cage mates up to 5, and that issue subsides.

You say you want to "start out" with hatchlings, and eventually breed. In that case sex of the hatchlings is a gamble, despite assurances from the breeder. So then you might as well look at getting 5, 6, or more, grow them to the size where they can be sexed. A popular thread here TFO, is an image with a thread title "what sex is it", so that won't be a problem, lots of free POV's here.

In that just "starting out", does that also mean all the space is the 6x6 and 10x10 the whole of it? For the entire project, from hatchling to breeding adult?

My guess is if you find yourself really liking tortoises as pets, those size constraints will not stand for long.

Also consider, the actual price of the animal is very small compared to the costs over its life for food, and electricity, as just two other expenses. There are several species captive bred that meet your two criteria of average adult size and price.

Building a breeding group over time may result in your first acqusitions not working out. With some luck, if you get two or three individuals each from two or three breeders, you will end up with a few extra males. Some will be better at persisting in the care you provide, they will be your "keepers" while others you may trade, sell, or give away for getting the best sex ratio.

In my experience, while meeting your size and price limits, and considering the space limits you have right now, redfoots pretty much will be your first choice. Kelly brings up a good point to raise hatchlings in a smaller, more controllable enclosure.

I think forest species are better maintained in the space parameters you state, as their natural envionnent is not the "great wide open" that leopards or testudo would get in the wild. Captive bred animals seem less ingrained with what their wild born counterparts "expect" in life, but IMO, there is some instinct about what their visual and movement needs are. Even subadult forest species that are wild caught seem to do better in limited size enclosures, IMO, than open landscape species.

Pancakes and redfoots tend to rise to the top of the list for doing well in groups, but pancakes are not 10 inches, ever. They are a small species.

As suggested, visual barriers in both your indoor and outdoor enclosures will provide multiple animals a chance to feel less crowded, which will be important no matter what species you select.

You might also consider getting just one or two individuals of more than one species and see which you like better, thinking ahead that those that don't win your own heart will be sold, traded, or given away.

Of course the down side of that, bssed on your stated goal of "wanting" one species, is you may find you like two species, and you keep them both.

Lots to think about. Go to reptile shows and see live animals, talk to breeders in person and be a detective, asking them why they breed the species they have.

IMO, the best record of posts here on TFO, and seeing a goal sought and met is by N2TORTS, for redfoots. His posts tend to be like an open personal journal of his tortoise life, at least for a species that is smaller than a burmese mountain tortoise, larger than 10 inches, can cost less than 250, and can work in the spaces you describe.

Open any one of those criteria up, especially price, and the choice opens up much. Go for a species that has an "average" adult size less than 10 inches, and then pretty much every species becomes a possibilty less the five big ones already described.

Will

 

[ben32hayt]

Thanks will, I decided one the redfoot tortoise unless you would suggest another species. I found a breeding pair of wild caught adults for 325$. I decided I could breed them with my female tortoise also.
-Ben

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Redfoots are a great choice, and I think of them as "fun" species in that they play and have 'antics' that can amuse. They seem to be more resilient on that wild caught to captivity transition than most species. That said, it is also often true that WC or CB babies grown up in a system of captive care will produce offspring BEFORE wild caught adults acquired at the same time. Tortoises tend to have a strong 'map' in their minds. Forest species, with an exception, seem to deal with this better than the wide open space species.

Maybe as your program develops you can post some images for everyone who are vicarious redfoot breeders like myself.

Will

 

[ben32hayt]

Thanks everyone so much for their help! I will post pics of the tortoise I will be breeding once I acquire them. If anyone has anymore advice about starting off it would be greatly appreciated.
-Ben

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Hi thanks everyone for the advice so far I have decided the eastern hermann tortoise. But I was also wondering about pancake tortoises and marginates I would prefer those over the hermann. Once again thanks
-Ben

As you already have one Western Hermann's, and as they are still hard to come by, compared with Easterns and Dalnations, why not get a few more and start breeding these? HermanniChris can probably help you here, both with where to get breeding stock and with lots of good advice.

Many folks already breed Easterns and Dalmations, and many of those folks would like to get Westerns, if they were available, so that's where I'd turn...you'll be able to sell as many of your hatchlings as you'll have available, and will continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future, which can finance future endeavors, as well as make more of these beautiful torts available, without depleting wild stock...

 

[ben32hayt]

Hi thanks everyone for the advice so far I have decided the eastern hermann tortoise. But I was also wondering about pancake tortoises and marginates I would prefer those over the hermann. Once again thanks
-Ben

As you already have one Western Hermann's, and as they are still hard to come by, compared with Easterns and Dalnations, why not get a few more and start breeding these?

Many folks already breed Easterns and Dalmations, and many of those folks would like to get Westerns, if they were available, so that's where I'd turn...you'll be able to sell as many of your hatchlings as you'll have available, and will continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future, which can finance future endeavors, as well as make more of these beautiful torts available, without depleting wild stock...

I would love to breed westerns but I can't find any for sale currently and I would like to get the tortoises before the winter begins.
Ben

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Hi thanks everyone for the advice so far I have decided the eastern hermann tortoise. But I was also wondering about pancake tortoises and marginates I would prefer those over the hermann. Once again thanks
-Ben

As you already have one Western Hermann's, and as they are still hard to come by, compared with Easterns and Dalnations, why not get a few more and start breeding these?

Many folks already breed Easterns and Dalmations, and many of those folks would like to get Westerns, if they were available, so that's where I'd turn...you'll be able to sell as many of your hatchlings as you'll have available, and will continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future, which can finance future endeavors, as well as make more of these beautiful torts available, without depleting wild stock...

I would love to breed westerns but I can't find any for sale currently and I would like to get the tortoises before the winter begins.
Ben

I believe I know of a male for sale, if your present one is a female.

Otherwise, check with HermanniChris and a few of TFO's other Hermanniphiles...

 

[ben32hayt]

Mine is too young to tell but are you selling him because I would like to know more info on him if so. I am emailed Chris and asked but please give me more info on the male. Thanks, Ben

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Mine is too young to tell but are you selling him because I would like to know more info on him if so. I am emailed Chris and asked but please give me more info on the male. Thanks, Ben

Not mine, but I'll check tomorrow for details about him and get back to you...the owner is looking to rehome him, but as we're getting prepared to emigrate from Texas to N. Carolina in about 6 months, this isn't a good time for me to start a new tortoise colony.

 

[ben32hayt]

Thanks for the help
-Ben