Feeding question

[moderndoubt]

How often should I feed my baby's? There maybe 6 months old max. Reading mix reviews. Some say every 3 days. Reason says they wouldn't find tons of food to eat every day in the wild. Plus over feeding cause them to grow much faster And reach adult size quicker. Then I've also read leave food out all day so they can graze. Please enlighten me. Thx you

 

[Laura]

I wonder about that too.. The amount of food they would have in the wild vs what we feed in Captivity..
but most people feed daily.. some suggest every other day.
In the wild there would be feast or famine days.. weeks..
so I really wonder about that... any harm to actually get good food daily? prob not.. Fast a day? wont hurt then either im sure.

 

[mainey34]

Really, i cant see myself not feeding my female sulcata atleast some greens every day. I couldnt go without eating. I feed daily.

 

[Tom]

Tortoises should be fed every day. Those websites you are reading are old and outdated. In the past people thought that protein and excess nutrition were the causes of pyramiding and they recommended feeding lightly to help prevent it. We now know this is not the case.

I don't know which species you keep, but I know of no species that doesn't have food to eat everyday on the wild. People used to think that sulcatas spent nine months with no food during the dry season. We now know this is false. Feeding them light and skipping days will result in stunted tortoises. They will still pyramid if conditions are too dry. I know this because when I raised my current adults back in the 90s I followed this advice. It seemed logical and sensible to me at the time and I couldn't explain my pyramiding any other way. Time and experience has proven to me that I, and they, were wrong.

 

[Baoh]

I provide food either twice daily or have constant availability, depending on the situation.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Tortoises should be fed every day. Those websites you are reading are old and outdated. In the past people thought that protein and excess nutrition were the causes of pyramiding and they recommended feeding lightly to help prevent it. We now know this is not the case.

I don't know which species you keep, but I know of no species that doesn't have food to eat everyday on the wild. People used to think that sulcatas spent nine months with no food during the dry season. We now know this is false. Feeding them light and skipping days will result in stunted tortoises. They will still pyramid if conditions are too dry. I know this because when I raised my current adults back in the 90s I followed this advice. It seemed logical and sensible to me at the time and I couldn't explain my pyramiding any other way. Time and experience has proven to me that I, and they, were wrong.

Tom, I'm interested with this. I don't agree that sulcata gets no food at all during dry season, but then what are their food during that season? Hay? Dried grass and leaves? Because I think african area is very dry during that season and punishing to plant, so very few plant available.. So what do they eat?

---

I provide food either twice daily or have constant availability, depending on the situation.

Baoh, can you share more, on what situation you would provide twice and constant availability? For me I provide either cactus pads, greens, leaves, weeds or mazuri in some amount, but constant grass / hay available for them.

 

[Tom]

YT, I have been told by Tomas Diagne, founder of the African Chelonian Institute, that wild sulcata use their gulars, shoulders and necks to drag weeds and grass down into their burrows toward the end of the dry season. He told me that they line their entire burrow with greenery and then subsist on that until the rains return. He says by the end of the dry season, the grasses are mostly gone. At this years TTPG conference he told me he has pictures of this activity on his hard drive. I'm supposed to email him and remind him to find these for me. If and when I get them I will post them here for sure.

 

[Baoh]

Tortoises should be fed every day. Those websites you are reading are old and outdated. In the past people thought that protein and excess nutrition were the causes of pyramiding and they recommended feeding lightly to help prevent it. We now know this is not the case.

I don't know which species you keep, but I know of no species that doesn't have food to eat everyday on the wild. People used to think that sulcatas spent nine months with no food during the dry season. We now know this is false. Feeding them light and skipping days will result in stunted tortoises. They will still pyramid if conditions are too dry. I know this because when I raised my current adults back in the 90s I followed this advice. It seemed logical and sensible to me at the time and I couldn't explain my pyramiding any other way. Time and experience has proven to me that I, and they, were wrong.

Tom, I'm interested with this. I don't agree that sulcata gets no food at all during dry season, but then what are their food during that season? Hay? Dried grass and leaves? Because I think african area is very dry during that season and punishing to plant, so very few plant available.. So what do they eat?

---

I provide food either twice daily or have constant availability, depending on the situation.

Baoh, can you share more, on what situation you would provide twice and constant availability? For me I provide either cactus pads, greens, leaves, weeds or mazuri in some amount, but constant grass / hay available for them.

---

Sure. If outside or in an otherwise planted enclosure, they have constant availability of food and can eat as they please (ad libitum). If inside and in an unplanted enclosure, my habit is to provide food twice daily as my schedule of activity allows. Due to not having a ton of time in the morning, I tend to throws various foliage (my preference is turnip greens) to them at that time of day and prepare something like Mazuri or other energy dense choices in the evening when I am in less of a rush. Constant grass should be fine and likely ends up being the bulk of their diet and your active feedings effectively serve as supplements for variety. When mine are outside, I usually only provide extra food to reproductive females or young animals I am trying to nudge to maturity a bit less slowly. Otherwise, I leave them to what they find, as the yard provides many options. Inside, I do not have the luxury, and so must commit to actively feeding them. If I lived in a Southern state again, I would probably not feed them at all except for the two cases I mentioned (or for an underweight animal).

 

[bobbymoore]

Mine love eating( I think most sulcatas do) biting feed in the morning a snack when I come home from work and usually before bed usually when they are hungry they lay on there plate

 

[Yellow Turtle]

YT, I have been told by Tomas Diagne, founder of the African Chelonian Institute, that wild sulcata use their gulars, shoulders and necks to drag weeds and grass down into their burrows toward the end of the dry season. He told me that they line their entire burrow with greenery and then subsist on that until the rains return. He says by the end of the dry season, the grasses are mostly gone. At this years TTPG conference he told me he has pictures of this activity on his hard drive. I'm supposed to email him and remind him to find these for me. If and when I get them I will post them here for sure.

Now I remember reading about this information somewhere here. I always think the wild sulcata will consume all the dried grass during the dry season. I agree that we need pictures for this, as it's quite hard to imagine how they dragging and pulling all the weeds and grass with their gulars, necks and shoulders. But that also means that sulcata has more fiber rich food during the dry season. Thanks for sharing.

---

Sure. If outside or in an otherwise planted enclosure, they have constant availability of food and can eat as they please (ad libitum). If inside and in an unplanted enclosure, my habit is to provide food twice daily as my schedule of activity allows. Due to not having a ton of time in the morning, I tend to throws various foliage (my preference is turnip greens) to them at that time of day and prepare something like Mazuri or other energy dense choices in the evening when I am in less of a rush. Constant grass should be fine and likely ends up being the bulk of their diet and your active feedings effectively serve as supplements for variety. When mine are outside, I usually only provide extra food to reproductive females or young animals I am trying to nudge to maturity a bit less slowly. Otherwise, I leave them to what they find, as the yard provides many options. Inside, I do not have the luxury, and so must commit to actively feeding them. If I lived in a Southern state again, I would probably not feed them at all except for the two cases I mentioned (or for an underweight animal).

I get your idea, and can very quick to agree with the indoor feeding setup you use. I need to know more for the outside setup, where you left the torts to feed on their own. I believe you have grass planted, but how can we arrange the torts not to be picky eaters and eat all kind of plants in their outside habitat? Won't it lead to certain kind of deficiency to some torts who are being picky eaters? Have you noticed this? I'm interested to find out what kind of plants you provide for the outside habitat. Thank you.

 

[Baoh]

YT, I have been told by Tomas Diagne, founder of the African Chelonian Institute, that wild sulcata use their gulars, shoulders and necks to drag weeds and grass down into their burrows toward the end of the dry season. He told me that they line their entire burrow with greenery and then subsist on that until the rains return. He says by the end of the dry season, the grasses are mostly gone. At this years TTPG conference he told me he has pictures of this activity on his hard drive. I'm supposed to email him and remind him to find these for me. If and when I get them I will post them here for sure.

Now I remember reading about this information somewhere here. I always think the wild sulcata will consume all the dried grass during the dry season. I agree that we need pictures for this, as it's quite hard to imagine how they dragging and pulling all the weeds and grass with their gulars, necks and shoulders. But that also means that sulcata has more fiber rich food during the dry season. Thanks for sharing.

---

Sure. If outside or in an otherwise planted enclosure, they have constant availability of food and can eat as they please (ad libitum). If inside and in an unplanted enclosure, my habit is to provide food twice daily as my schedule of activity allows. Due to not having a ton of time in the morning, I tend to throws various foliage (my preference is turnip greens) to them at that time of day and prepare something like Mazuri or other energy dense choices in the evening when I am in less of a rush. Constant grass should be fine and likely ends up being the bulk of their diet and your active feedings effectively serve as supplements for variety. When mine are outside, I usually only provide extra food to reproductive females or young animals I am trying to nudge to maturity a bit less slowly. Otherwise, I leave them to what they find, as the yard provides many options. Inside, I do not have the luxury, and so must commit to actively feeding them. If I lived in a Southern state again, I would probably not feed them at all except for the two cases I mentioned (or for an underweight animal).

I get your idea, and can very quick to agree with the indoor feeding setup you use. I need to know more for the outside setup, where you left the torts to feed on their own. I believe you have grass planted, but how can we arrange the torts not to be picky eaters and eat all kind of plants in their outside habitat? Won't it lead to certain kind of deficiency to some torts who are being picky eaters? Have you noticed this? I'm interested to find out what kind of plants you provide for the outside habitat. Thank you.

---

My base grass outside is zoysia. There are fescues and others, but the zoysia makes up most of it. There are hundreds of species of various weeds also present in the yard, most of which are low-growing and are interlaced in the lawn. The animals eat it all. Plaintains, clovers, and tons of stuff. Hostas are present, as are hibiscus shrubs. Animals, animal feces, and so forth. Wild fungi (mushrooms, puffballs, and some bracket stuff). When we cook eggs, I toss them the shells and albumen remains, which they eat readily. I spread dolomite flour around the yard in an attempt to fortify the calcium level of their graze, but I have not measured this to see if it is any more effective than not doing so. It is simply habit at this point. No symptoms of deficiencies yet, and they reproduce. No signs of problems in adults, juveniles, or hatchlings.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Zoysia is nice grass and widely available here, but I don't know about their palatability and nutrients for torts. Is it good?

Why do you feed egg shells and albumen? I know the shell are calcium carbonate, but the membrane and albumen contain high protein. I believe you feed occasionally, but won't it better if they don't touch it at all?

 

[Baoh]

They actually prefer the zoysia over other grass types that make up my yard's lawn. I do not observe any problems. My sulcatas typically grow 2-4" a year, with some a tad more and some a tad less. It seems to make up the largest proportion by mass of their diet outdoors.

There is nothing incorrect about high protein, as the amino acids are key building blocks of living tissues. In many/most cases, it is a rate-limiting nutrient for growth of lean body mass. I feed nesting females intact eggs at times to help them replace what they are losing through egg generation, too.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

I provide protein from the mazuri as a complement, but I don't really like to give too much.

Sorry Baoh, I must have missed some typing regarding the egg shells. I mean if they eat them, will the shells be able to break down into powders or they will still be in big piece and it might hurt their intestines? I a bit worry about the egg shells because when I feed cuttlebone to my torts, when they chew it, it readily breaks into powder, but I'm not sure about the egg shells.

Thank you.

 

[Baoh]

I do not worry about a concept of too much protein, as metabolism should allow for a great variety of quantities, with more being better until it exceeds utility. Beyond that point, gluconeogenesis, an inefficient process.

The egg shells have a high surface area : volume ratio and dissolve easily enough in gastric HCl.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Okay how can I forget simple chemistry. CaCO3 dissolved in acid...

Not worry of high protein seems to be the accepted concept here nowadays in this forum. You have a unique way of describing, making me need to ask for more

Please explain more of "more being better until it exceeds utility". Because my understanding, gluconeogenesis only happening if there is low level of sugar in the blood. So if you keep feeding protein and it in turn converts to glucose, won't it be bad for torts' health?

Thank you.

 

[Baoh]

Happy to provide any information I can.

Basically, there is an amount needed to maintain (lean body mass) lbm. Above that, there is an amount needed to provide physical substrate for anabolism supporting the growth of new tissue, with energetics coming primarily from lipids or carbohydrates, but mainly carbohydrates due to a tortoise's typical diet and the efficiency involved (glucose is easier to make from, if not directly derived from, carbohydrate-laden foods). Then you have a higher maintenance requirement since you have achieved new growth and therefore a higher bar for the achievement of future new growth. A sort of upward spiral.

Gluconeogenesis happens in multiple situations. Among those, there is the situation you mentioned, where there is less glucose available than desired by the body. Another is when protein intake and absorption exceeds the ability to use it in the form of amino acids post-disgestion and post-absorption. If maintenance and new growth rate needs have been topped off and the intracellular amino acid pool is effectively saturated, there is nothing for more to do at that point, so the body may (inefficiently) convert any significant excess at that point into glucose, which will be used by cells. If the amount of glucose exceeds the need by cells and glycogen stores in muscle and the liver are saturated, another inefficient conversion may occur whereby the excess carbohydrate starts being converted to triglycerides by the liver and is subsequenty stored as fat in the lipid droplets within adipocytes (fat cells) for use in time of famine (waste not, want not).

So, in short, more is better in a healthy animal until it reaches a point of uselessness, after which it is inefficiently converted into other energy/process/storage-devoted substrates. With that said, there are also gut absorption efficiencies to consider, but I cannot predict that specifically, so I do not usually address it in conversation (it is an ever-present given, but can also be variable). In an animal with compromised renal health, you may well need to limit protein to some degree in particular situations. In an animal without kidney problems, especially one that is well hydrated, it is not of any great concern. High protein does not cause damage to healthy kidneys. That myth comes from a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of renal matters. If you have large chunks of broken down muscle in the bloodstream due to rhabdomyolysis, too much ammonia, or a few others situations, this can harm kidney healthy, but it is generally not driven by dietary intake. The former is from chunks being forced through, and ruining, the glomerulus, which is key to the nephrons (the functional units of the kidney). The latter usually is due to problems in metabolism by the liver and the kidneys and can then be further exacerbated by various dietary practices.

Anytime.

 

[moderndoubt]

Great I got alot of good info from this thread that was started. Thanks guys.
I been feeding them now every other day.
Bok Choy, Collared Greens, Brussel Sprouts, Cactus Pears, Spring mix, Orchard Grass hay & wheat cat grass is what I've been feeding them.
I think they are happy with that. Their 3 cute faces are always munching away.
Thanks again guys!
-Nikole

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Thanks Baoh, that last explanation is pretty clear to me. I might increase some portion of high protein greens like long bean and green bean in their menu. So far I hardly ever feed them those things.

---

Great I got alot of good info from this thread that was started. Thanks guys.
I been feeding them now every other day.
Bok Choy, Collared Greens, Brussel Sprouts, Cactus Pears, Spring mix, Orchard Grass hay & wheat cat grass is what I've been feeding them.
I think they are happy with that. Their 3 cute faces are always munching away.
Thanks again guys!
-Nikole

Nice to know your torts are going well, Nikole

Sorry, I hijack your thread a lot

 

[Baoh]

Thanks Baoh, that last explanation is pretty clear to me. I might increase some portion of high protein greens like long bean and green bean in their menu. So far I hardly ever feed them those things.

---

Great I got alot of good info from this thread that was started. Thanks guys.
I been feeding them now every other day.
Bok Choy, Collared Greens, Brussel Sprouts, Cactus Pears, Spring mix, Orchard Grass hay & wheat cat grass is what I've been feeding them.
I think they are happy with that. Their 3 cute faces are always munching away.
Thanks again guys!
-Nikole

Nice to know your torts are going well, Nikole

Sorry, I hijack your thread a lot

---

Yes, most of the protein I provide to them is from plant sources. String beans are a favorite. I also try to add minerals if I am increasing protein for more structural elements. They tend to go along with meat, but that might not be coincidentally included in some vegetable sources.