Evolutionary egg question answered: turtle goo reduces oxygen

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GeoTerraTestudo

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6 February 2013

Some reptile species give birth to live young, but turtles have never evolved this ability. New research is revealing why.

PhD student Dr Anthony Rafferty, Associate Professor Richard Reina and Associate Professor Roger Evans from Monash University in collaboration Dr Franciscus Scheelings at Healesville Sanctuary studied four species of turtle and discovered the egg-carrying female had the unique biological ability to wait to lay her eggs on land when conditions were right, giving her young the best chance of survival.

Detailed in the American Society of Naturalists, the study found the egg-carrying females had low oxygen levels in their reproductive tracts, or oviducts. These conditions halted embryonic growth at a certain stage, whereas ova kept at optimal conditions continued to develop normally.

Dr Rafferty, from the School of Biological Sciences, said it was likely the low oxygen environment was actively created by the female and could explain how turtles were able to store eggs by halting development until they could lay them safely on land.

“Surprisingly, live-birth has evolved in over 120 lizard and snake species, but never in closely related crocodile or turtle groups. Until now, the reasons why live-birth has not evolved in these reptile groups were unknown,” Dr Rafferty said.

“It appears the female actively produces a mucus-like substance inside the reproductive tracts where the eggs are stored, to lower oxygen levels and cause the eggs to stop developing.”

Dr Rafferty said this allowed the turtle to select when and where to lay the eggs on land, taking into account access to adequate food sources and a secure environment.

“After an egg is laid the membrane inside the egg connects and so the egg can’t be turned at all or the young will die,” Dr Rafferty said.

“We think she wants to stop the development of the egg before it reaches that stage because if she was laying the egg, and it turned at all during the laying, it would die if it were at any further stage of development.”

Dr Rafferty said this insight into evolutionary biology had implications for conservation, particularly the preservation of the endangered leatherback turtle because more than half of the eggs laid in each nest never hatch.

“It seems that a lot of the embryo’s in those nests are failing to restart developing after they are laid, dying at the stage of development that we’re studying,” Dr Rafferty said.

“We think that the trigger to restart development is not occurring in these eggs after they are laid and the embryos subsequently die. Further research will give us a better picture of this.”

http://www.monash.edu.au/news/show/turtle-halts-egg-development

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20130602-24032.html
 

wellington

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That is very interesting. Do you think that the tortoises that people think are egg bound, could really be waiting, stopping the growth, because they do not believe/feel the proper place/conditions has been found? Could rushing them to a vet and doing unnatural means to the female to get her to lay, be causing problems to the hatchlings? Are they really egg bound? Or just waiting?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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wellington said:
That is very interesting. Do you think that the tortoises that people think are egg bound, could really be waiting, stopping the growth, because they do not believe/feel the proper place/conditions has been found? Could rushing them to a vet and doing unnatural means to the female to get her to lay, be causing problems to the hatchlings? Are they really egg bound? Or just waiting?

Good question. I would think it could be a little of both. Some cases could really be just arrested development, while others could be real egg bound. Probably depends on the condition and behavior of the female, since they can't hold their eggs forever. Would be interesting to get a vet's take on that.
 

RedfootsRule

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Very interesting..But ugh, I just know I'm opening up a can of worms saying this, but I just hate when they decide to take a discovery like this and slap it with the name "evolution"...
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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RedfootsRule said:
Very interesting..But ugh, I just know I'm opening up a can of worms saying this, but I just hate when they decide to take a discovery like this and slap it with the name "evolution"...

Why?
 

tortadise

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Nice article. Wonder what southern hemisphere(diapose required species) would throw into their research findings. It would seem it could apply to the same principle. But the "need" to wait is undermined but the knowing of cool and warmth to grow and stop and grow again. So essentially it throws a curve in the reality of the female waiting for perfect temps. it can work either way on starting points. Cool or hot. Good study. I like it. Also wonder what manouria would throw at them in the study in relative purpose to this concept of science. Seeing as they build the nest and covet their deposit of eggs.
 

RedfootsRule

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
RedfootsRule said:
Very interesting..But ugh, I just know I'm opening up a can of worms saying this, but I just hate when they decide to take a discovery like this and slap it with the name "evolution"...

Why?

Suffice to say, I am a strong advocate against the "theory of evolution", and I hate it when they use discoveries like this to back it up....
 

Heliopteryx

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I wonder if other reptile species, or even bird species also do this, or if turtles and tortoises developed this method of keeping the eggs "fresh" (for lack of a better word) because the eggs getting turned over is really bad.
 

sibi

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Thanks for the.article. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a question, though. If a turtle/tort lays eggs in the ground, and someone removes it to transfer them into an incubator, do they risk killing the eggs? Is that why some people never get live eggs when they move them?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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RedfootsRule said:
Suffice to say, I am a strong advocate against the "theory of evolution", and I hate it when they use discoveries like this to back it up....

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of the theory of evolution. For one thing, microevolution (small genetic change over relatively short periods) is a proven fact, meaning that we know it exists. For example, bacteria develop antibiotic resistance, wolves were bred into dogs, and humans evolved different skin tones.

As for macroevolution (larger genetic changes over longer time spans), this is really the notion that bothers creationists. Whether macroevolution should be considered scientific fact or theory is debatable. However, evolution is an extremely well-supported idea about how life changes over time. So much so, that to ignore it in any scientific or popular publication would be negligent.

Those who understand evolution have great reason to be confident that it is true. Objections to it are founded either in misunderstanding evolutionary theory itself, or else in concern over the moral and metaphysical implications of evolution. Fortunately, understanding evolution is not incompatible with being humane to other people and other creatures, or with believing in a metaphysical realm beyond science's ken.
 

CourtneyAndCarl

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I sooo wanted to comment on the evolution side comments but I will refrain from doing so. Either way, that's really cool! I wonder if it is the same for crocodilian species.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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sibi said:
Thanks for the.article. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a question, though. If a turtle/tort lays eggs in the ground, and someone removes it to transfer them into an incubator, do they risk killing the eggs? Is that why some people never get live eggs when they move them?

When eggs are first laid, they can be turned. However, after several days the embryo has formed, so turning the egg over could damage the embryo if it causes it to be pressed under its yolk sack.
 

Levi the Leopard

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RedfootsRule said:
Very interesting..But ugh, I just know I'm opening up a can of worms saying this, but I just hate when they decide to take a discovery like this and slap it with the name "evolution"...

:D
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Oh, dear. So now all the evolution deniers are coming out of the woodwork, eh? I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Unfortunately, about 46% of Americans are Creationists:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html

BTW - Creationism is not an exclusively Christian phenomenon. There are Jewish and Muslim Creationists out there, too. They are, of course, free to believe what they want. But I say it is "unfortunate" because it is simply a refusal to accept what a mountain of evidence has been telling us for 150 years: that life changes over time. I can understand opposition to an atheistic worldview, which many scientists do have. But opposition to simple facts? That's just denial.
 

Levi the Leopard

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This thread isn't an evolution debate and I'm not interested in partaking in one. But sometimes you are shocked by who thinks what sometimes. The reason for my smile.

In regards to your post I was wondering the same thing Wellington asked about..
wellington said:
That is very interesting. Do you think that the tortoises that people think are egg bound, could really be waiting, stopping the growth, because they do not believe/feel the proper place/conditions has been found? Could rushing them to a vet and doing unnatural means to the female to get her to lay, be causing problems to the hatchlings? Are they really egg bound? Or just waiting?

found that point interesting
 

sibi

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Thanks, that's helpful to know.

GeoTerraTestudo said:
sibi said:
Thanks for the.article. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a question, though. If a turtle/tort lays eggs in the ground, and someone removes it to transfer them into an incubator, do they risk killing the eggs? Is that why some people never get live eggs when they move them?

When eggs are first laid, they can be turned. However, after several days the embryo has formed, so turning the egg over could damage the embryo if it causes it to be pressed under its yolk sack.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Heather, I agree, this is not an evolution debate. I just wanted to share a cool article on turtle biology. However, I do not object to dispelling myths about evolution. I see why you smiled, though. I am surprised to see that Peter is a Creationist, but I suppose it is possible to know a lot about turtle husbandry, but not their evolution.

As to Wellington's point, it is interesting. Again, I would think it depends on the condition of the female tortoise whether she's just waiting, or is actually egg-bound.
 

RedfootsRule

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
RedfootsRule said:
Suffice to say, I am a strong advocate against the "theory of evolution", and I hate it when they use discoveries like this to back it up....

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of the theory of evolution. For one thing, microevolution (small genetic change over relatively short periods) is a proven fact, meaning that we know it exists. For example, bacteria develop antibiotic resistance, wolves were bred into dogs, and humans evolved different skin tones.

As for macroevolution (larger genetic changes over longer time spans), this is really the notion that bothers creationists. Whether macroevolution should be considered scientific fact or theory is debatable. However, evolution is an extremely well-supported idea about how life changes over time. So much so, that to ignore it in any scientific or popular publication would be negligent.

Those who understand evolution have great reason to be confident that it is true. Objections to it are founded either in misunderstanding evolutionary theory itself, or else in concern over the moral and metaphysical implications of evolution. Fortunately, understanding evolution is not incompatible with being humane to other people and other creatures, or with believing in a metaphysical realm beyond science's ken.

Geo, I'm sorry, I have total respect in your views and you come across as one smart cookie to me on this forum. I just plainly disagree. Microevolution doesn't follow the theory of evolution for reasons I won't go into, and that whole tidbit of radio halos of polonium-214 recorded in crystalline granite, which took how many 100 million years to form? Don't take my beliefs as some sort of insult, as you clearly have, calling those why deny it "negligent". There really is no provable basis for evolution, so calling those who deny it "negligent" is negligent in itself. But if you would like to have an "in-depth" conversation of it, my pm is open, as this is rather off-topic....
Regardless, I have no desire to change your views. I am simply stating mine, which I am entitled to. Getting all worked up over it is rather unnecessary....Clearly I really did open up a can of worms here.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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No worries, Peter. We could discuss over PM, or better yet, have a nice thread about evolution in the Off-Topic Debate section. Then you and I can put our best arguments forward. But yes, this thread is for cool turtle reproduction stuff, not an evolution debate in general.
 

RedfootsRule

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They say "halted embryonic development at a certain stage". What I would like to know is, what exactly is that stage? However....We can move eggs after they are laid due to the fact that embryonic development has not yet STARTED. Perhaps, in the case of these "held-back" eggs, they are more sensitive, since some form of embryonic development has started? But no, that would be impossible, as the embryos would die when dropped into the nest...I just can't understand that statement. If it was halted, that means some form of embryonic development has started, but we can move eggs BECAUSE no embryonic development has started, and it is not yet attached...But then soon after they mention that the egg attaches AFTER being laid...But only (as far as I know) after the ovum is attached does the development begin....So how can something be halted that can not have been started?
 
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