Drawback of Overwintering in house

[Big Charlie]

Some of us have no choice, we love our tortoise & happen to live in northern Il, I have to believe a lot of people house for winter, so i'm asking for ideas, i'm thinking some day he gets his own bedroom

As long you provide your tortoise with a safe and warm place to live, and all his needs are met, it shouldn't matter whether you keep him inside or outside. Most of the negative comments are directed to people who think it is safe to let their tortoise wander the house. There are way too many dangers to allow that. A dedicated room or section of a room for your tortoise that is tortoise-safe should be fine. You have to be aware that even if your house is heated, it may be cooler on the floor where your tortoise is.

I had a dedicated room for a rabbit at one time, and the room got pretty much destroyed, so you should be prepared. It was a relief to be able to move him outside full-time.

Charlie lives outside in California full-time, but much of the winter he is inactive, unlike many other sulcatas mentioned on the forum. I don't know why. Even when he is kept warm; last winter he slept through the entire month of November and most of December in his heated night box.

 

[Tom]

Of course! But there is more than one way to do things.

There are certainly more ways to do things, and some of those other ways are likely to lead to harm. If someone does things differently than I do, but it works, and its safe, I have no issue and no bone to pick. But when someone is doing a commonly done thing that is known to be harmful and potentially deadly, are people not to say something?

If I'm new to a hobby or endeavor and my alternative way of doing things is likely to lead to disaster, I would like someone who has experience and knows better to let me know. I would be thankful for that help, even if I didn't ask for it.

 

[Tom]

Yeah, us northerners shouldn't have sulcata, if you believe some articles I have read....

Done the way you are describing it with a large area and proper attention to temperatures and space, it is fine. But do you realize what percentage of Northerners are going to do it that way? The only thing I have seen discouraged is people who don't have the room or resources to house a large tortoise in an adequate way over winter.

Its akin to someone who lives in an apartment, but loves their horse and wants to keep him in there with them. An apartment is not an appropriate place for a horse, and that idea should be discouraged. Now sure, some millionaire with a 30,000 sq. ft. penthouse apartment could build a proper horse enclosure, install a freight elevator, and hire the staff to care for it properly, but that rare exception is not what we are discussing here. A small tub in a basement is no way to house an adult sulcata for months at a time over a frozen winter. That is what is being discouraged in the threads you mention.

This next bit is a personal opinion. No one on either side of this issue would be right or wrong, its just "feelings". If I lived in the frozen North, I would not keep giant species of tortoises. I would stick to smaller species that I could do a better job of housing in the winter. That is just me. I have no problem with someone who wants to dedicate a large area, heat and light it properly, and go throughout the expense, effort and tremendous hassle of maintaining a giant tropical reptile in a snowy climate, its just not my cup of tea. Also 1600 square feet, 40x40, for example, is really not that much room for a 100+ pound sulcata. I use that much space to house 8-15" juveniles and they march up and down the whole thing. A 32" wandering giant contained in something that small for several months in a row every year, is not ideal in my opinion. It certainly could be worse, and it usually is worse, but I would not do it. 1600 square feet would be an awesome enclosure for a group of RFs, or any Testudo species. I think it would be okay for regular leopards too. But for an active 32"+ giant? I don't think so.

Have you seen how active a healthy adult sulcata is? Have you seen how much ground they cover? A sulcata is not going to drop dead because it is in an enclosure that is too small for Tom's comfort, but where is the line? At what point is someone trying to do something they shouldn't? You've got 1600 sq ft. What would you say to someone with only 1000? What about someone with an entire 12x12 bedroom? What about someone with a 6x10' basement enclosure. The tortoise could still turn around and walk a bit, but are you okay with that? Can someone with only 6x10' meet the needs of a 32" giant tortoise in your opinion? They can't in mine. This is no different than the person who wants to buy and adult WC russian and keep it in a 40 gallon tank, because they "don't have room" for anything bigger. Is there not a point at which you would tell a person: "You don't have the room to house that animal properly."?

 

[dmmj]

looks like I have to get rid of my horse now. :-(

 

[BrianWI]

Done the way you are describing it with a large area and proper attention to temperatures and space, it is fine. But do you realize what percentage of Northerners are going to do it that way? The only thing I have seen discouraged is people who don't have the room or resources to house a large tortoise in an adequate way over winter.

Its akin to someone who lives in an apartment, but loves their horse and wants to keep him in there with them. An apartment is not an appropriate place for a horse, and that idea should be discouraged. Now sure, some millionaire with a 30,000 sq. ft. penthouse apartment could build a proper horse enclosure, install a freight elevator, and hire the staff to care for it properly, but that rare exception is not what we are discussing here. A small tub in a basement is no way to house an adult sulcata for months at a time over a frozen winter. That is what is being discouraged in the threads you mention.

This next bit is a personal opinion. No one on either side of this issue would be right or wrong, its just "feelings". If I lived in the frozen North, I would not keep giant species of tortoises. I would stick to smaller species that I could do a better job of housing in the winter. That is just me. I have no problem with someone who wants to dedicate a large area, heat and light it properly, and go throughout the expense, effort and tremendous hassle of maintaining a giant tropical reptile in a snowy climate, its just not my cup of tea. Also 1600 square feet, 40x40, for example, is really not that much room for a 100+ pound sulcata. I use that much space to house 8-15" juveniles and they march up and down the whole thing. A 32" wandering giant contained in something that small for several months in a row every year, is not ideal in my opinion. It certainly could be worse, and it usually is worse, but I would not do it. 1600 square feet would be an awesome enclosure for a group of RFs, or any Testudo species. I think it would be okay for regular leopards too. But for an active 32"+ giant? I don't think so.

Have you seen how active a healthy adult sulcata is? Have you seen how much ground they cover? A sulcata is not going to drop dead because it is in an enclosure that is too small for Tom's comfort, but where is the line? At what point is someone trying to do something they shouldn't? You've got 1600 sq ft. What would you say to someone with only 1000? What about someone with an entire 12x12 bedroom? What about someone with a 6x10' basement enclosure. The tortoise could still turn around and walk a bit, but are you okay with that? Can someone with only 6x10' meet the needs of a 32" giant tortoise in your opinion? They can't in mine. This is no different than the person who wants to buy and adult WC russian and keep it in a 40 gallon tank, because they "don't have room" for anything bigger. Is there not a point at which you would tell a person: "You don't have the room to house that animal properly."?

I am just happy you don't get to make that decision for everyone

I have also seen a group of large sulcata in much smaller areas than my space (or any you would deem sufficient) and do well. I don't think you need a stadium.

 

[Tom]

I am just happy you don't get to make that decision for everyone

I have also seen a group of large sulcata in much smaller areas than my space (or any you would deem sufficient) and do well. I don't think you need a stadium.

In a few years, I think you will understand my perspective a bit better.

 

[mike taylor]

This is a 100+ pound sulcata. He is always on the move eating . They can eat loads of grass a day . If they don't get to move around they lose muscle. With a house on their backs that's a bad thing. The bigger the setup the better. These guys cover a lot of ground in a short time . You'd be surprised how fast they move . A tortoise this big needs a 1/4 acre to romp around in . I agree you can keep them in a smaller enclosure. Sure they can move around but are they happy?

 

[Big Charlie]

In a few years, I think you will understand my perspective a bit better.

This is a 100+ pound sulcata. He is always on the move eating . They can eat loads of grass a day . If they don't get to move around they lose muscle. With a house on their backs that's a bad thing. The bigger the setup the better. These guys cover a lot of ground in a short time . You'd be surprised how fast they move . A tortoise this big needs a 1/4 acre to romp around in . I agree you can keep them in a smaller enclosure. Sure they can move around but are they happy?

I see many build rather small enclosures in their yards for their torts because they don't want to give up their entire yard and/or they have other animals. I'm happy that Charlie has the use of our entire yard. I'm fairly certain it is enough space for him because he has never eaten the grass down to the nubs, and there are lots of obstacles for him to walk around and hide under to make his life interesting. Happiness is a human emotion, not one that animals can experience, IMO, but I think his life is as close to ideal as it can be away from his natural environment.

 

[BrianWI]

In a few years, I think you will understand my perspective a bit better.

I think you get too caught up in "your way". I laugh a bit when you think these are big animals as I sit here sipping my orange juice, looking out my door at 1,100 1500lb dairy cows.

(Yes, 1,100 of them).

 

[mark1]

This next bit is a personal opinion. No one on either side of this issue would be right or wrong, its just "feelings". If I lived in the frozen North, I would not keep giant species of tortoises. I would stick to smaller species that I could do a better job of housing in the winter. That is just me. ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
In a few years, I think you will understand my perspective a bit better

i raised two 6 foot plus water monitors in a room in my basement , after all that effort and expense only to end up in a "what now" moment , and they only live like 20yrs .......... no internet at the time , i don't even believe i found them a good home , i just passed on a problem ...... i feel bad thinking about that to this day .......... i live in the frozen north and i couldn't agree with you more ....... but as you said there are exceptions , had i been willing to dedicate my entire basement , and enclose my backyard it could've worked ......

 

[Tom]

This is a 100+ pound sulcata. He is always on the move eating . They can eat loads of grass a day . If they don't get to move around they lose muscle. With a house on their backs that's a bad thing. The bigger the setup the better. These guys cover a lot of ground in a short time . You'd be surprised how fast they move . A tortoise this big needs a 1/4 acre to romp around in . I agree you can keep them in a smaller enclosure. Sure they can move around but are they happy?

Well that is the debate Mike. Sure they need a lot of room to move, but exactly how much? Is 10x10' okay for the winter? How about 40x40' for 6 months each year? There are 43,560 sq. ft. in an acre, so you think they need 10,890 square feet at that size?

All of this is debatable, and much of it will come down to people's opinion and comfort level. May I ask, if you couldn't keep your tortoise outside all year, what would be the smallest indoor enclosure you would be "comfortable" with? And, how many months a year would it be acceptable to you to have your tortoise confined to the smaller indoor quarters?

 

[Kaliman1962]

I get that us northerners should not have one, honestly I didn't realize all this, this is my first tortoise, I have years to worry about it, but i'm planing on making something big in my basement, it will have a wood floor so he doesn't ruin carpet, heat, uvb, etc, then he will be outside most of time, atleast that's my Plan I had a mastiff who was 225, my bullmastiff is 130, my pit 85, so I'm kind of used to big animals, oh, I also bred boas & pythons years ago, 12ft plus, once kids came I sold them off

 

[Tom]

I think you get too caught up in "your way". I laugh a bit when you think these are big animals as I sit here sipping my orange juice, looking out my door at 1,100 1500lb dairy cows.

(Yes, 1,100 of them).

And I could laugh a bit at your dairy cows when I look at my 1900 pound camel, or my buddies 6000 pound white rhino "Spike", or his two African elephants. I know how big dairy cows get, and how messy they are too, since I work with them on a regular basis. Where does that leave us? What does that have to do with the discussion of how much space an adult sulcata needs?

Why do you find the need to be so confrontational and insulting? Why can't we just have a conversation among friends and discuss different aspects of tortoise care and opinion? Are you one of those people that thinks every one is stupider than you? Does you having dairy cows somehow mean you know more about how to house a large sulcata than a guy that has been housing lots of large sulcatas for decades?

I'm trying to further this discussion to get a feel for what various people think the minimum housing requirement for a large tortoise is. It has nothing to do with "my way".

 

[Tom]

I get that us northerners should not have one, honestly I didn't realize all this, this is my first tortoise, I have years to worry about it, but i'm planing on making something big in my basement, it will have a wood floor so he doesn't ruin carpet, heat, uvb, etc, then he will be outside most of time, atleast that's my Plan I had a mastiff who was 225, my bullmastiff is 130, my pit 85, so I'm kind of used to big animals, oh, I also bred boas & pythons years ago, 12ft plus, once kids came I sold them off

No one is saying who should or shouldn't have one. People in glass houses you know… Someone from Senegal could get on here and tell us people in SoCal, FL and AZ that our winters are much too cold for this species and we shouldn't keep them here. We could argue that, "Hey. We use heated shelters for winter and they do fine…", but that wouldn't be acceptable to some people.

We are just talking among friends with a common interest here. There is no one on this thread, or this whole site that I can think of, that is doing anything that I would consider "cruel". I'm just interested in people's insight into this matter, as I have never kept a sulcata in the frozen North, but I have insight into keeping them here where we have intermittent 80 degree weeks and lots of sunshine all throughout winter.

When well cared for they can easily hit 50 pounds in five years. I've seen them hit 50 in 3.5 years in rare cases. So you might not have as much time as you think. I use 4x8' indoor enclosures to start babies and they outgrow those in about one year and must live outside after that.

Wood floors will rot under the waste of a large sulcata. I'll take a pic in one of my night boxes for you today. Its wet and nasty. Also, walking on wood all day is too slick for their feet and legs. They need more traction than that.

Last thing, an adult sulcata will drop larger piles than your mastiff on a daily basis. I did a thread a few years ago showing a pile from my great dane next to a pile from a 65 pound sulcata. The sulcata won in both weight and volume, and that was not even counting the puddle of urine and urates surrounding the pile.

I'm not trying to be discouraging. Just trying to let you know what is ahead for you. I think it would be easier to clean up after one of Brian's dairy cows than a large sulcata… (Okay, that's an exaggeration, but after having cleaned up after both for decades, its really not that far off…)

 

[Kaliman1962]

Thank you Tom, when I said wood floor, I just ment to protect carpet, it will be filled with cypress multch,
Maybe I bit off more than I can chew, but I will do everything humanly possible to make sure he is cared for,
I appreciate your input & would like more
Thanks

 

[mike taylor]

Well that is the debate Mike. Sure they need a lot of room to move, but exactly how much? Is 10x10' okay for the winter? How about 40x40' for 6 months each year? There are 43,560 sq. ft. in an acre, so you think they need 10,890 square feet at that size?

All of this is debatable, and much of it will come down to people's opinion and comfort level. May I ask, if you couldn't keep your tortoise outside all year, what would be the smallest indoor enclosure you would be "comfortable" with? And, how many months a year would it be acceptable to you to have your tortoise confined to the smaller indoor quarters?

That is a good question. That I really don't think anyone person can answer. But for me if my tortoises couldn't go outside year round . I'd say a 20/20 shed for three months wouldn't be out of the question. In the wild they spend a lot of time underground due to high temperatures. But who knows how long they stay there out of the year . This would be a good question for Thomas.

 

[mike taylor]

I see many build rather small enclosures in their yards for their torts because they don't want to give up their entire yard and/or they have other animals. I'm happy that Charlie has the use of our entire yard. I'm fairly certain it is enough space for him because he has never eaten the grass down to the nubs, and there are lots of obstacles for him to walk around and hide under to make his life interesting. Happiness is a human emotion, not one that animals can experience, IMO, but I think his life is as close to ideal as it can be away from his natural environment.

Animals do show emotion . Some people just don't see it . Have you ever seen a pig in a stall ? As soon as you open that stall they come running out kicking an spinning . Really cool to see . Horses do the same . I had my seven red foots in a 12 /12 enclosure. They really came out of hides to eat then back to hiding . I opened it up to a 20/20 enclosure plus the 12/12 . Now they're out most of the day . Is that the kind of happiness a pig or horse shows you when you let them out of their stalls ? I don't know ,but I do know they seem more active in a larger setup . I do believe animals can suffer from depression.

 

[Tom]

This would be a good question for Thomas.

I think you are referring to Tomas Diagne. In the book that he helped write "The Crying Tortoise" by Bernard Devaux, they state that wild sulcatas live underground for 95% of their lives. Apparently they have tunnel systems to go for dozens or hundreds of meters, and no one knows how much they are moving around down there.

 

[Kaliman1962]

Where can we get the book?

 

[Tom]

Where can we get the book?

Sadly, It has been out of print for many years. Those who have copies won't give them up. I'm told there is a way to buy some sort of online copy. Do a search for African Chelonian Institute and email them. Its worth it. Its the best sulcata book written. It has French on one side of the page and English on the other. Tomas is a friend of mine so tell him Tom from the tortoise forum says hello.

Tomas has been promising a new book for yeas now, but I still haven't seen it. He has also sorts of new data showing range, activity levels, burrow temps and humidity, etc…