Diet Recommended By Vet?

[Viggo Mortortoise]

Hey guys!

So I am the new owner of a baby leopard tortoise, I have had him for a few weeks. I called my exotic vet today to refill some medicine for my rabbits, and since I bring all my exotics to them, they asked about them. Told them I got a new leopard tortoise and I have never had tortoises before, so they offered to email me a care sheet. On the caresheet they had a recommended diet for hatchlings. It mentions beans, which made me curious, because everything I have read never mentions beans. However this exotic vet is highly regarded in the Phoenix area, they even work with AZA zoos and aquariums, so I don't think they would provide bad information. Just wanted to check in on what people thought?

· 1 cup of dark green leafy vegetables (e.g., romaine, escarole, green leaf lettuce, mustard greens, dandelion greens, kale, collard greens, etc.) It is important to rotate what you are using as any one of these greens lacks everything needed for optimum tortoise health.

· 1 tablespoon raw beans (lima, pinto, garbanzo, or mung)

· 1 tablespoon yellow, red, or orange produce (sweet potato, strawberry, carrot, etc.). Hard produce should be shredded rather than chopped.

· 1/8 cup of Zoo Med™ Grass Tortoise Food, soaked in water for at least 15 minutes

 

[Maro2Bear]

Welcome!

Take a read here from the bible, Start Chapter 1 right to the end. It’s all here, one stop shopping!

✅ https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...se-a-sulcata-leopard-or-star-tortoise.181497/

 

[jsheffield]

I agree that the caresheets found here on TFO are better than anything you're likely to find at a Vet's office.

That many beans provides a fair amount of concentrated protein, so I would probably not....

Sweet potato and strawberry have a lot of sugars in them, so I would be leery of these as well... I feed my Russians a bit of butternut squash 1-2 times a week.

My experience in vetting the vets around my home was that they don't know much about tortoises, and generally lump all types into one bin when it comes to ailments and diet and care... you're much better off finding out how to care for your torts from the experienced keepers (among which I do not yet count myself) here on TFO.

Good luck!

Jamie

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

In my years with reptiles, I've found that many, if not most vets, even "exotic" vets, get most of their treatments from either internet searches or books written in 1990. They have a little heads-up in that they have certain "go to" medications they use as cure alls, but for most issues, fellow owners are usually the better bet. Vets are good for surgery and antibiotic medication.

Almost all ailments boil down to four things with reptiles: temp/lighting, enclosure, humidity & diet. Get those as close to perfect as you can, and very rarely will you have any issues. Take shortcuts on any of those and it costs twice to ten times as much to fix the problems.

Also, zoos aren't always the pinnacle of perfection. Many times they lapse in care. Remember that they have hundreds of animals that they try to use as many "one size fits all" for classes of animals. I know of a zoo that has a VERY obese savannah monitor. They feed him mice and ground turkey. It's Komodo Dragon "monitor chow". Savannah monitors are designed to eat invertebrates like slugs, mollusks, termites, locus, and less than 10% of their diet is vertebrates. But you find "monitor chow" on many FAQ for all species of monitor lizard, and many zoos have fat lizards.

Don't worry. The folks here got your back.

 

[Tom]

In my years with reptiles, I've found that many, if not most vets, even "exotic" vets, get most of their treatments from either internet searches or books written in 1990. They have a little heads-up in that they have certain "go to" medications they use as cure alls, but for most issues, fellow owners are usually the better bet. Vets are good for surgery and antibiotic medication.

Almost all ailments boil down to four things with reptiles: temp/lighting, enclosure, humidity & diet. Get those as close to perfect as you can, and very rarely will you have any issues. Take shortcuts on any of those and it costs twice to ten times as much to fix the problems.

Also, zoos aren't always the pinnacle of perfection. Many times they lapse in care. Remember that they have hundreds of animals that they try to use as many "one size fits all" for classes of animals. I know of a zoo that has a VERY obese savannah monitor. They feed him mice and ground turkey. It's Komodo Dragon "monitor chow". Savannah monitors are designed to eat invertebrates like slugs, mollusks, termites, locus, and less than 10% of their diet is vertebrates. But you find "monitor chow" on many FAQ for all species of monitor lizard, and many zoos have fat lizards.

Don't worry. The folks here got your back.

I want to "Like" your post 100 times!

 

[Tom]

Hey guys!

So I am the new owner of a baby leopard tortoise, I have had him for a few weeks. I called my exotic vet today to refill some medicine for my rabbits, and since I bring all my exotics to them, they asked about them. Told them I got a new leopard tortoise and I have never had tortoises before, so they offered to email me a care sheet. On the caresheet they had a recommended diet for hatchlings. It mentions beans, which made me curious, because everything I have read never mentions beans. However this exotic vet is highly regarded in the Phoenix area, they even work with AZA zoos and aquariums, so I don't think they would provide bad information. Just wanted to check in on what people thought?

· 1 cup of dark green leafy vegetables (e.g., romaine, escarole, green leaf lettuce, mustard greens, dandelion greens, kale, collard greens, etc.) It is important to rotate what you are using as any one of these greens lacks everything needed for optimum tortoise health.

· 1 tablespoon raw beans (lima, pinto, garbanzo, or mung)

· 1 tablespoon yellow, red, or orange produce (sweet potato, strawberry, carrot, etc.). Hard produce should be shredded rather than chopped.

· 1/8 cup of Zoo Med™ Grass Tortoise Food, soaked in water for at least 15 minutes

Most zoos and AZA facilities are at the bottom of the knowledge curve. Even when there is an occasional experienced and intelligent zoo keeper, their hands are tied with multiple levels of ridiculous bureaucracy. These are not places to learn from. They often serve as an example of what NOT to do.

What Ninja said about vets is true too.

I don't think that diet is going to cause harm to a well hydrated tortoise, but it is less than ideal. A small amount of legume once in a while is a good thing. Tortoises need protein. Just not too much too often, and they need to be well hydrated to pass the by-products of protein digestion. Why use store bought stuff when there is a world of better foods all around us for free?

Here is the care sheet info on diet:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild? Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plants of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

I want to "Like" your post 100 times!

Awwww... Thanks! Maybe for xmas I'll make you a poster of it.

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

Most zoos and AZA facilities are at the bottom of the knowledge curve. Even when there is an occasional experienced and intelligent zoo keeper, their hands are tied with multiple levels of ridiculous bureaucracy. These are not places to learn from. They often serve as an example of what NOT to do.

What Ninja said about vets is true too.

I don't think that diet is going to cause harm to a well hydrated tortoise, but it is less than ideal. A small amount of legume once in a while is a good thing. Tortoises need protein. Just not too much too often, and they need to be well hydrated to pass the by-products of protein digestion. Why use store bought stuff when there is a world of better foods all around us for free?

Here is the care sheet info on diet:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild? Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plants of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.

that's good to know how about The Carrot Tops I have lots of carrots in my garden currently I've been feeding her collards grape leaves lettuce weeds and Cactus pad which she really loves and I think she may have tried a little mazuri and that's it since I've had her you recommend do you recommend giving her anything else besides The Carrot Tops I mean should I switch it up daily weekly she eats all of it and I give it all to her at the same time

 

[Tom]

Awwww... Thanks! Maybe for xmas I'll make you a poster of it.

Only if its framed and ready to hang.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Generalizing zoo and vets is probably not a good idea, and it is certainly wrong. It really depends on the individuals. Most zoos do not have a nutritionist, so that responsibility, sorting out diets falls to the Vet or the curator/keeper. They often are constricted by a purchasing person, often some admin in an office looking to keep their day simple.

I have a great deal of my learning about tortoise nutrition from a few vets and at least one zoo nutritionist. I'll grant you they are exceptional for their focused interest.

I like @Tom 's care sheet for the reason that many people want a direct 'check the box' list of do's and don'ts and that care sheet will satisfy that "need". I step way out of the care sheet guidance on diet, and I get it why it is explained as it is. So many people in a variety of venues ask "what is the single best ______" for my animal. There are no universal single bests. There are good general guidelines. That is what I get from the care sheet.

Diet, I use a small amount of sweet potato nearly everyday, but like half a cup mixed in with about 20 heads of greens, not a 1:1 ratio with greens. IMO romaine and green leaf lettuces are okay, but not 'dark' greens.

watch this video, I talk about what I feed in the first part. https://kapidolofarms.com/2020/03/20/herpeton-2019-talk-a-video/

there are also two powerpoint talks where I describe using grocery store greens.

It would be so much easier to have a large yard and manage the night house climate and fences and weeds than all the salad prep time I use, but I have more tortoises than my yard will support.