Concern about tortoise welfare/legality

[Charsuibun]

Hi All,

I wasn't sure where exactly to post this, or if there's even much I can do but I'm really concerned about a tortoise I've seen for sale today.

I'm based in the UK, and generally (at least where I'm based) the only shops to sell tortoises are exotics specialists, but today I found a new chain pet store near me who sell tortoises as standard. They informed me that the horsfield tortoise they've got on sale is 2 and a half years old (paperwork states it was born Nov 2016). I've got a photo of the little guy here, along with my horsfield who's about 3. I can't believe that there'd be such a disparity in size, which leads me to believe that the paperwork they have is falsified.

The tort seems fairly well looked after, albeit a bit dry so I'm not overly concerned for its well-being. But I am concerned that the suppliers they're using are importing these from abroad illegally.

Can I do anything about this? I'm guessing DEFRA would be my best bet, but again I don't know how much they could do.

 

[daniellenc]

Tortoise size can vary a ton between specimens. How they were raised, their genetics, diet, locality of origin......You also can’t know the pet shop forged documents for all you know that’s the paperwork that came with the tortoise. Maybe your paperwork on your guy is wrong? I think there’s too many plausible pieces at play to assume wrong doing. If he appears well cared for and healthy I’d leave it alone personally.

 

[Charsuibun]

Tortoise size can vary a ton between specimens. How they were raised, their genetics, diet, locality of origin......You also can’t know the pet shop forged documents for all you know that’s the paperwork that came with the tortoise. Maybe your paperwork on your guy is wrong? I think there’s too many plausible pieces at play to assume wrong doing. If he appears well cared for and healthy I’d leave it alone personally.

I wasn't suggesting that the paperwork was forged by the pet store, they explicitly told me it was the paperwork supplied to them by the breeder.

I adopted my tortoise at two years old from a friend who in turn bought her at six months old - the breeder is a friend of the original owner, so we know her age is legit. I have also been to a vet specialising in tortoises numerous times over the past year who has always commented that she is the perfect size and weight for her age.

The tortoise for sale couldn't have been any more than 5-6cm long, that's half the size of mine who is supposedly 5 months older. Even accounting for differences in environment, diet, etc I can't imagine the difference would be so extreme. (Please do correct me if I'm wrong here, I will gladly admit that I don't know everything about tortoises).
I appreciate that not every tortoise will be identical, but the size charts I've seen posted on this very forum must have been created for a reason?

Like I mentioned, my main concern is that they're selling illegally imported tortoises to unsuspecting people for £130 a pop. Who knows what condition these tortoises are in by the time they reach their new owners.

 

[Minority2]

60mm (6cm) is the minimum allowable size for a tortoise to be able to be commercially sold in the UK. If they have the documents and the tortoise/hatchling is tagged with a microchip, the paperwork should be legitimate. If I remember correctly, certain species like Horsefield/Russians don't require official transaction certificates.

The 4 inch law only applies in the United States. A lot of people debate about this law from time to time.

Look at the shop. Look at their equipment. Check to see if they're housing tortoise species in livable conditions. Report/yelp bomb them if conditions are deplorable.

130 quid sounds way cheaper than what I've paid in the past. Has the market really come that far down on Adult Russians?

 

[Charsuibun]

60mm (6cm) is the minimum allowable size for a tortoise to be able to be commercially sold in the UK. If they have the documents and the tortoise/hatchling is tagged with a microchip, the paperwork should be legitimate. If I remember correctly, certain species like Horsefield/Russians don't require official transaction certificates.

The 4 inch law only applies in the United States. A lot of people debate about this law from time to time.

Look at the shop. Look at their equipment. Check to see if they're housing tortoise species in livable conditions. Report/yelp bomb them if conditions are deplorable.

130 quid sounds way cheaper than what I've paid in the past. Has the market really come that far down on Adult Russians?

I've no idea if it had a microchip, I wasn't aware that was common practice? My only issue with the pet store itself was that the substrate looked a little too dry, it looks like it was the same stuff they're using for the lizards etc and had no moisture to it at all, and the heat lamp was far too low - like max 5" off the ground, but then I don't know what temps they had.

They said they usually keep at least two at a time, but s/he is on their own currently. The tank is large enough to accommodate 2-3 of that size.

I have sent an email highlighting my concerns to the head office, I want to offer them the opportunity to respond first.

And £130 is about average for what I've seen around here in the past, like I said I've only ever seen them for sale in exotics stores before, but they were about £100-150 for babies.

 

[Lyn W]

I wasn't suggesting that the paperwork was forged by the pet store, they explicitly told me it was the paperwork supplied to them by the breeder.

I adopted my tortoise at two years old from a friend who in turn bought her at six months old - the breeder is a friend of the original owner, so we know her age is legit. I have also been to a vet specialising in tortoises numerous times over the past year who has always commented that she is the perfect size and weight for her age.

The tortoise for sale couldn't have been any more than 5-6cm long, that's half the size of mine who is supposedly 5 months older. Even accounting for differences in environment, diet, etc I can't imagine the difference would be so extreme. (Please do correct me if I'm wrong here, I will gladly admit that I don't know everything about tortoises).
I appreciate that not every tortoise will be identical, but the size charts I've seen posted on this very forum must have been created for a reason?

Like I mentioned, my main concern is that they're selling illegally imported tortoises to unsuspecting people for £130 a pop. Who knows what condition these tortoises are in by the time they reach their new owners.

Can you ask them who the breeder is?
Or pretend you are interested and ask to see the paperwork to see if the name is on there?
That way you could maybe do some detective work on him to put your mind at rest, but I wouldn't involve authorities until you have some concrete evidence and they probably wouldn't become involved without it.
When I first had my leopard the vet who did his health check told me that based on his size he was at least 10 years old, then I saw a leopard who was definitely 7 years old and way bigger than my tort. So it can be difficult to judge on size alone.
I understand your concern but I think you need that evidence before talking to DEFRA.

 

[Lyn W]

I've no idea if it had a microchip, I wasn't aware that was common practice? My only issue with the pet store itself was that the substrate looked a little too dry, it looks like it was the same stuff they're using for the lizards etc and had no moisture to it at all, and the heat lamp was far too low - like max 5" off the ground, but then I don't know what temps they had.

They said they usually keep at least two at a time, but s/he is on their own currently. The tank is large enough to accommodate 2-3 of that size.

I have sent an email highlighting my concerns to the head office, I want to offer them the opportunity to respond first.

And £130 is about average for what I've seen around here in the past, like I said I've only ever seen them for sale in exotics stores before, but they were about £100-150 for babies.

I can't think which Pet store chain you mean, our locat P at H stores don't sell them.
Maybe print them off a caresheet from here and give it to one of the assistants or email it to head office.
That way you'll have at least updated them on correct care and may make a difference.

 

[daniellenc]

This applies to most pet stores unfortunately. They bring in bulk animals in varying degrees of health. House them in sub standard conditions to squeeze as many in as possible. There is no real ideal quarantine period and sanitation is never optimal. They’re riddled with out dated and poor information on diet and husbandry and the bottom line is sales. This is why morally I won’t purchase anything from a pet store. Less money in makes it less profitable for them to continue. However, what you’re describing isn’t criminal. Albeit wrong it’s not illegal. Can the store be expected to “verify” paperwork? No. They have no way and honestly probably don’t care. They have to take what is given to them and have documentation but no one can actually prove if the paperwork in question is valid.

Your tortoise got a much different start in life. It is probably housed indoors and outside as well with adequate space. Given a much better diet and not competing with others for food. You probably soak your tortoise and because your tort has grown up alone it hasn’t been exposed to bacteria’s and parasites that inhibit normal growth. I understand your concern and don’t disagree with you on the plight of pet stores as a whole. I’m just not convinced that tortoise can’t be two or that there was intentional misrepresentation of its age.

 

[Minority2]

I've no idea if it had a microchip, I wasn't aware that was common practice? My only issue with the pet store itself was that the substrate looked a little too dry, it looks like it was the same stuff they're using for the lizards etc and had no moisture to it at all, and the heat lamp was far too low - like max 5" off the ground, but then I don't know what temps they had.

They said they usually keep at least two at a time, but s/he is on their own currently. The tank is large enough to accommodate 2-3 of that size.

I have sent an email highlighting my concerns to the head office, I want to offer them the opportunity to respond first.

And £130 is about average for what I've seen around here in the past, like I said I've only ever seen them for sale in exotics stores before, but they were about £100-150 for babies.

I think you'll want to consult with fellow knowledgeable UK tortoise owners about current DEFRA/CITES laws regarding tortoises. The wording isn't completely clear on size limits for tortoise species that do not fall under CITES protection. Horsefield/Russians are among the list of species that do not fall under said protection.

130 quid from a store selling "breeder quality" specimens in theory sounds like a deal when compared to average breeder prices. However, I would not recommend anyone on buying anything without evidence of the breeder's practices, operations, and results. Too many scams. It could be wild caught with fake paperwork. Lousy breeders using stolen pictures of good specimens from the internet to lull in business. It could also be second grade specimens from reputable dealers trying to get rid of what they cannot sell online.

I very much doubt any reports would do any good. Many big box pet stores have worse living conditions. They're all still in business.