Baby Leopard Tortoise losing weight

[desertdweller]

Hi everyone,

We brought home a young tortoise about 8 weeks ago (all they could tell us at the time was that he was under 6 months old).
I've been weighing him weekly and initially he seemed to be doing well (other than no feces for the first 2 weeks for which I took him into the vet, who said he looked really good).
He went from weighing 41 grams to 45 grams but now has been declining the past two weeks, first down to 40 grams and now yesterday, down to 37 grams.
I'm trying to give him a lot of options for veggies and rarely (maybe once a week) I'll put in a piece of fruit.
His basking spot is kept between 33-34C (91-93F).
The night time temp is probably the same as the house, around 75F and under the glass of his cave where he sleeps the heating pad is turned on.

I've read the file about the top mistakes people make and I think I know a few we're doing wrong already but please let me know your thoughts
Things I think we may be doing wrong:
*He needs to be kept warmer at night
*His terrarium needs some form of humidifier
*We need to soak him in warm water more often (right now we do about once every 2 weeks)
* He should have access to Cuttle Bone
* We need to change the substrate

I'll try to attach a photo of his terrarium. We live in the desert so when he's bigger and it's safe for him, he'll live outside in our walled in garden.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Babies losing weight is not a good sign.

You know your big issues though, so he has a chance. Dehydration is killer. Soak everyday. You also need a better substrate that will maintain humidity (and what's the shredded newspaper for?). On top of daily soaking out of the enclosure and high humidity, he also needs a shallow water dish in his enclosure his entire body can fit in at all times (a terra cotta plant saucer works well).

You also need to keep the air temperature warmer at night (under-substrate heaters are not recommended for this). Thankfully, you've already come upon all this stuff!

Warmth and water are the big things you are missing and they're critical.

Your diet looks like it needs work too, but I imagine the dehydration is your biggest concern right now.

How high up is your bulb (it is a UVB emitting bulb, yes? It may be too high and that cage may be filtering more of the UVB than you'd want). Proper lighting plus a calcium source like the cuttlebone are also essential.

Good luck.

 

[desertdweller]

Thanks for your reply Sarah.
The shredded newspaper was what the reptile Vet suggested we put in there on top of what we already had. He said that being a baby, he would love to burrow in it to hide.

I'll put a terra cotta dish in there for him to soak in.

What do you do to get the enclosure humid and keep it there?

His diet, all he seems to be interested in eating is cucumber. I've tried pepers, sprouts, different herbs, spinach, green onions, celery, carrots, and the only thing he wants is cucumber and lettuce if I put it in (I've heard that it doesn't give them many nutrients so it's one to only feed occasionally).

Yes, the bulb we have is a UVB emitting bulb.

 

[Careym13]

Welcome to TFO!! You are correct about the things you need to change.
Temps should never be lower than 80F at anytime. Basking temp should be up around 100F.

Fine grade orchid bark and/or coco coir are good substrate choices for Leopards. They resist mold and help keep humidity up.

Cuttlebone is a yes. Pretty much everything you have been feeding is not suitable for a Leopard. Leopards need lots of weeds in their diet (plantain, dandelion, marshamallow, hibiscus flowers and leaves, etc.). If you don't currently have access to weeds, there are some grocery store greens and other things you can feed. Fruit should generally be avoided. Opuntia cactus (which you can find online) is another good food for Leopards. If nothing else, get to the grocery store and pick up some Endive and Escarole lettuce...they have good calcium/phosphorous ratios and are some of the better "lettuce" choices for Leopards. Radicchio is another good grocery store green that can be offered in moderation; it's red color usually entices torts to eat it. Check out this link for safe and not safe tortoise food: http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/

A pinch of calcium powder and vitamins once or twice a week on your tortoise's food would be a good idea, especially while you are straightening out the diet situation.

You should be soaking everyday, 20 minutes approximately in water that is 85-95F. Soak your tortoise in a shallow container inside the enclosure so the water stays warm.

If you make your enclosure as air tight as possible, change the substrate and pour water into the substrate once or twice a week your humidity should stay over 90% fairly easily.

The terra cotta dish should be used for the water dish but use something like shallow tupperware for soaking.

Some vets base their information on old, outdated practices regarding tortoise husbandry. Shredded newspaper will only dry out your enclosure and is very susceptible to mold.

You need daytime heat and UV. What brand is the bulb your are using? A lot of us use Mercury Vapor Bulbs as they provide heat and UV. However, you have to make sure that your enclosure does not get too hot so you'll need to select the wattage carefully if you go that route (most people use 100 watt and raise or lower the bulb to get the desired basking temp). And like Sarah said, it looks like the bulb you currently have might be too high for the tort to benefit from the UV. Most manufactures will list the recommended heights on the packaging that comes with the bulb. At night, a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) is a good choice. It provides heat, but no light (torts need total darkness to sleep). I keep my CHE's on thermostats so that they kick on and off as needed to maintain the desired night time temperatures. You can find reptile thermostats online.

Where exactly are you located? When it is warm enough outside (in my area I wait until the ground temp is above 80), access to unfiltered, real sunshine is the best bet for UV.

I realize this is a ton of info, but I have been in your shoes and I understand how overwhelmed you probably feel. So please ask as many questions as you want. If you implement these changes now, you will likely have a happy, healthy, thriving tortoise. I'm glad you found us when you did. Also, read this Leopard care sheet...it will clarify in more detail some of the things I mentioned and will cover things I likely left out :http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/

 

[Markw84]

Totally agree with Sarah. Babies do need to be soaked daily and you need to get the humidity up on the enclosure. It is an enclosed setup now and I see your bulb is hanging inside, which is good. (You will need an much larger enclosure soon) An orchid bark substrate kept moist will get that humidity up. Needs to stay in the 80% range min. Have you read through the thread pinne to the top of the leopard tortoise section by @Tom ? It is excellent and talks about diet as well. Your hide should also be opaque - dark inside. Also get digital thermometer/hygrometers for better accuracy. I love the Acurite model 0411 The main unit, shows temp and humidity as well as temp and humidity from a remote sensor. I set the main unit in the cooler side of the enclosure and put the remote unit laying inside the hide. ..So at a glance I see my cool side & humid hide stats. I use an IR heat gun (I use Lasergrip 800 because it has the smallest sensing spot to distance ratio) to check basking spot temp and check the tortoise's shell temps at various times. I love that I can check soaking temps of the water and shell with the heat gun to be sure they do not become too cold in the 30 minute soak. Sounds like your main basking bulb is a Mercury Vapor bulb? That's great. You do need a Ceramic Heat Emitting bulb on a thermostat and get rid of the heating pad.

Your guy will need to adjust to new food. Variety is key. Mix in the best stuff with his favorite stuff all chopped up and gradually increase the ration of the good stuff he's not eating now. I love keeping some house plants in the enclosure for security and interest for the tortoise to explore, instead of a flat unbroken place. Be sure you are using safe plants. I think one I see in you tank is a prayer plant - which is great. Good food for him and does well in artificial light.

But, WELCOME to the forum. So glad you came here to get you questions answered. I've learned a ton here and I've been keeping tortoises for 50 years now!

 

[Markw84]

Welcome to TFO!! You are correct about the things you need to change.
Temps should never be lower than 80F at anytime. Basking temp should be up around 100F.

Where exactly are you located? When it is warm enough outside (in my area I wait until the ground temp is above 80), access to unfiltered, real sunshine is the best bet for UV.

I realize this is a ton of info, but I have been in your shoes and I understand how overwhelmed you probably feel. So please ask as many questions as you want. If you implement these changes now, you will likely have a happy, healthy, thriving tortoise. I'm glad you found us when you did. Also, read this Leopard care sheet...it will clarify in more detail some of the things I mentioned and will cover things I likely left out :http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/

Great info from @Careym13 From your avatar as desertdweller, you are probably from an area that is warm outside a good portion of the year. I actually find I can put mine out to bask and get natural light and exercise when the temperatures are much lower. For example, three days ago we had a "nice" sunny day. It was 56F and the ground temp was 58 in the grass. However my Tortoises came out to bask against a wooden fence that read 110F on the surface and the tortoises' shell temp was registering in the low 90's! They are really good solar heat generators! Even though it's cool outside, you need to check their temps to be sure they don't OVERheat and have access to shade. A small tortoise heats and cools very quickly, but natural sun and exercise is SOOO good for them. So, get him out as much as possible, but be sure to monitor.

 

[Careym13]

Great info from @Careym13 From your avatar as desertdweller, you are probably from an area that is warm outside a good portion of the year. I actually find I can put mine out to bask and get natural light and exercise when the temperatures are much lower. For example, three days ago we had a "nice" sunny day. It was 56F and the ground temp was 58 in the grass. However my Tortoises came out to bask against a wooden fence that read 110F on the surface and the tortoises' shell temp was registering in the low 90's! They are really good solar heat generators! Even though it's cool outside, you need to check their temps to be sure they don't OVERheat and have access to shade. A small tortoise heats and cools very quickly, but natural sun and exercise is SOOO good for them. So, get him out as much as possible, but be sure to monitor.

Yeah I tend to be fairly cautious about the outdoor temps due to the weird weather my area has had the last few years but it is entirely possible the OP could get his/her tort outside more often or under different temps. That can def be a case by case basis.

 

[desertdweller]

Wow, thanks everyone! I didn't realize just how much I didn't know and was doing incorrectly!
I am going to get this stuff changed immediately.
I live in the Middle East, the temp at the moment during the day is in the mid 70's but in midst of the summer, it's around 115-120F.
The diet is the thing I'm most concerned about honestly.
I think I can find everything else I need online in the US (where I'm from) and have it shipped over.
Our grocery stores here are pretty basic and nothing compared to what you have in the States. I'll start with searching for the lettuce Careym13 suggested as an option and go from there.

 

[wellington]

If your temps are 75 or above you can get him outside for some sun. Keep any cooler wind off him and be sure he has shade to get into. A temp gun would work great for temping the ground. At 75 the ground if in the sun should be warmer. A half hour a day or every other day would be good and then you wouldn't need a UVB source for inside.
Cucumber is mostly water, so he won't gain weight eating that, but too much may cause diarrhea. Cut out the fruit completely, the amount you are feeding is a lot for a little one and leopards don't need any. Follow the advice already given, and read the threads below in my post, and make the changes and weight should start coming. Also, Mazuri tortoise diet pellet food helps a lot for putting on weight and size.

 

[weldorNate]

I would love to have 75 degree temps right now we are going into the deep freeze with windchill temps of -35 to -40 degree temps

 

[teresaf]

Respiratory infections happen when humidity is high without maintaining the heat at a MINIMUM of 80f(27c). Fixing all the rest could fix his appetite.

 

[Careym13]

Wow, thanks everyone! I didn't realize just how much I didn't know and was doing incorrectly!
I am going to get this stuff changed immediately.
I live in the Middle East, the temp at the moment during the day is in the mid 70's but in midst of the summer, it's around 115-120F.
The diet is the thing I'm most concerned about honestly.
I think I can find everything else I need online in the US (where I'm from) and have it shipped over.
Our grocery stores here are pretty basic and nothing compared to what you have in the States. I'll start with searching for the lettuce Careym13 suggested as an option and go from there.

There is a company called tortoisesupply.com that has a lot of good options for tortoise food, such as Mazuri like Wellington mentioned. I got my tortoises from them but also buy food from them on a regular basis. They also have the Grassland tortoise pellets that my Leopards really like. In addition, they have something called herbal tortoise hay. I use it a lot, especially in the winter when weeds are scarce. It provides some good variety and fiber.

 

[desertdweller]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say how much I really appreciated your help with our little guy (or girl).
I'm happy to report that he's doing well and gained a ton of weight. He went from 37 grams on Jan 14th to 63 grams today! We changed the substrate, got a ceramic heater to keep the temp really warm at night when the light is off, increased the humidity level, started bathing more regularly, and changed his food. It has made all the difference! Thanks again!