Babcoki vs Paradalis Paradalis?

[Marty333]

What are the differences between the two? Do they look different or something? Is there temperament different? Can someone show me pics comparing them. I am planning on buying a leopard in a year or two so I just would like to know about the subspecies.

Thank You,
Marta

 

[Greg T]

The differences are not really significant overall, but there are some. babcocki, or a mix of the two, is probably the most prevelant breed in the U.S. now. P.P. are more rare and difficult to find a true one versus a combination of the two breeds.

Most literature says the P.P. will grow a bit bigger than babcocki, and at a faster rate. Shape-wise they will also be more long oval shaped, whereas a babcocki will be a bit more round. Some say the P.P. are more friendly, but I haven't seen that in mine and I have both breeds.

Appearance will not differ much. Still have the same marbling and shell coloration. P.P. skin is usually much lighter and more yellow with speckles and Bobcocki will be darker.

You will pay more for a true P.P., but in my opinion you shoud concentrate on the tort itself, its personality, and the home care when choosing which one to purchase. I have had great luck with all mine so far.

 

[Balboa]

Caught the leopard fever did you?

Its going around like wildfire.

I've been researching them too, and at this point all I can say is aside from the physical differences Greg listed, the rest is subjective opinions on difference, albeit from good sources. As you probably know, Tom is really into G.p.p.. Talking to Tom about them has me thinking they'd fair better than any other "large" tortoise in my climate, which has me excited. If you haven't checked out all Tom's threads on them, its a good read. The part of South Africa where they live has drastic environment shifts over short distance. You can visit Forest, Chapparal-like, Savannah, Desert, Thicket all within a couple hours time. This seems to have made for a very hardy breed.

As I understand it, the more eastern and northern Babcocki is more of a true desert Tort.

I think the real draw to G.p.p. is that they are rare here, and that makes it cooler In all reality both are likely to be great torts.

 

[Marty333]

Im leaning towards babcoki I think their shells are really pretty!!!

 

[DeanS]

Keep in mind Marty, that both ssp shells start marbling within a few months, so a hatchling's color isn't neccesarily a true indicator of waht your adult will eventually look like. They (pardalis) are also the closest to sulcata in all aspects...personality, durability, etc! Not-to-mention, they are also larger than babcocki!

*NOTE...when I say durability I'm including the fact that pardalis can withstand cooler temps than babcocki, as well*

 

[Yvonne G]

If you're going by color variation, I think you'll find that in both sub species. What you're looking at is the super light ones, right? That's not indicative of either sub species.

 

[oswego tort lover]

ive kept and breed babcoki here in oswego co new york state 13 miles south of lake ontario for 23 years now .they stay outside without heat from mid may until early october with out any extra heat at nite. i do bring them inside if the nite time temperture is expected to be below 45F which does happen once or twice a summer every other year or so..there have been many 46F or 47F nites with out problems . we get alot of rain and have high humidity too .the elevation is 415feet above sea level ..the female is 19 inchs and 34 pounds ..i believe her to be around 28 yrs old as i bought her as a 6 inch WC in 1986..she's still growing .. my reading of the published lit is that babcoki in the very north of its range have been found to be the largest measured leopard's on record ..so what im saying is, i'm sure other's laugh to when we read on the forum, kingsnake or any where else that one form or the other is friendlier or more cold tolerent grows larger or is lighter or darker.these are claims made by the seller to sell one form over the other nothing else ....

 

[jobeanator]

marty, if your ever looking to buy a leopard tortoise.. and your leaning towards the babcocki breed, id highly recommend purchasing one from oswego tort lover... (aka ed) hes a great breed, great knowledge on leopards and i currently own 3 from him. i love the babcocki breed of the leopards.. theyre just as personable (more when theyre older IMO) as sulcatas and they arent to difficult to raise since im also about 30 min away from where ed lives. theres my 2 cents
-joby

 

[Yvonne G]

And...there are some notable chelonian experts who believe the two are the same species and that there is NO subspecies of leopard tortoise.

 

[cdmay]

And...there are some notable chelonian experts who believe the two are the same species and that there is NO subspecies of leopard tortoise.

Yeah, that is the big issue. The two are no longer regarded as distinct subspecies. In addition, I've been told that even in Africa tortoise experts do not see a real difference between them.
Jim Buskirk, who is a world authority on chelonians, was recently in South Africa where he found a number of large adult leopard tortoises and a few half growns too. The photos he sent me depict leopards tortoises of all colors and patterns. He also claimed that virtually none of tortoise people in South Africa think there is more than just the one type.
But then again what people are calling pardalis pardalis here in the states do seem to be very different animals than what we always called 'babcocki'. They seem to act differently and the hatchlings look noticeably distinct as well--although it is hard to say exactly how in words. Then there is the very real differences in incubation requirements. I used to hatch dozens and dozens of babcocki without doing anything more than putting them in an incubator. But everyone I know who works with what are called pardalis pardalis say that they REQUIRE a diapause in their incubation in order to hatch.

 

[Marty333]

Well pardalis pardalis are just to expensive for me especially with my babysitting income So I will probably go for a Babcoki mainly for cost and the care is probably easier. The cheapest I have found is 99$ but I doubt they are reputable

 

[onarock]

ive kept and breed babcoki here in oswego co new york state 13 miles south of lake ontario for 23 years now .they stay outside without heat from mid may until early october with out any extra heat at nite. i do bring them inside if the nite time temperture is expected to be below 45F which does happen once or twice a summer every other year or so..there have been many 46F or 47F nites with out problems . we get alot of rain and have high humidity too .the elevation is 415feet above sea level ..the female is 19 inchs and 34 pounds ..i believe her to be around 28 yrs old as i bought her as a 6 inch WC in 1986..she's still growing .. my reading of the published lit is that babcoki in the very north of its range have been found to be the largest measured leopard's on record ..so what im saying is, i'm sure other's laugh to when we read on the forum, kingsnake or any where else that one form or the other is friendlier or more cold tolerent grows larger or is lighter or darker.these are claims made by the seller to sell one form over the other nothing else ....

Nice, 19" 34lbs. My largest female babcocki is 17" 30lbs. I totally agree. In fact there are those out there in the tortoise world who say that leopards from the "horn" area of africa (somalia and ethiopia) deserve their own subspecies (stigmochelys.pardalis.somalica). Someone just posted a pic of some large Ethiopian leopards. They say the ones in Ethiopia are much like the p.pardalis in that they cover a wide range of climates both hot and cold. I would love to see some captive hatched ones in the states.

 

[Torty Mom]

Great thread with lots of info! Thanks guys, I have learned alot, great question Marty!!!

 

[Badgemash]

We have 2 hatchlings of each type at the moment. All I can really add is that although there are definitely some morphological differences between them (the babcocks are higher domed, the pardialis are more oval and yellow) and behavioral differences (the pardis love to dig and sleep in the tiny holes all night outside the hides) their personalities are totally independent. The most outgoing and the most shy one are both the babcockis, and the shells are showing very pretty marbling on all of them. I would suggest that you just find a breeder with a good reputation who is happy to let you examine the conditions they're kept in, and who starts them off properly (Tom has many excellent threads on this topic).

-Devon

 

[laura808]

at the mall pet store there was a VERT TINY leopard in a tank with a sulcata and box turtles, and ive wanted him for the longest time!!!!!

 

[Tom]

I've been messin' with babcocks since the late 80's too, and they are NOT the same thing as the pp. They don't look the same, they don't act the same, you can't hatch them out the same way, as Carl noted. Big difference in hardiness and cold tolerance too. One of the problems is that for many years people have been mixing the two sub species and most of what's out there are "mutts". When I went to pick up this batch of babies it was 53 degrees, overcast and 8:30am. The pp were out grazing, digging nests and acting normal. The babcocks and all other species stayed in their boxes for the entire visit.

I like the babcocks. They are a great tort. But I like the Gpp way better for a multitude of reasons.

And I don't say that because I sold a few. I say it because that's my honest opinion.

Also remember that a large number of people have trouble with the babcocks in FL. They seem to get respiratory infections much too often for my comfort. By contrast, one of the only two breeders that I know of that produce genuine, true pp is in FL. The other is here in CA.

They are worth the extra money and it doesn't matter how cheap the babcocks are if they get sick. A couple of the guys at the TTPG conference were joking about this very thing. How you don't keep babcocks in FL and you don't keep redfoots in AZ.

 

[onarock]

I would agree with everything Tom said except for one thing. I keep both and I live in a humid place. I dont know what the humidity is like in FL (I'll check right now) Right now its 76% humidity in Miami, 90% in Orlando and 86% where I live. Its usually 75% to 80% here, so 86% a little high and I have never had a problem with my babcocki not one. I dont know if that means anything. What I do know about respiratory problems with babcocki is the following: Tom is right, babcocki dont have the cold tollerance that pardalis do, but what I'd say to that is babcocki dont do well with prolonged coldness. I used to live at 2500 foot elevation, straight up the mountain from where I live now. It got cold up there at night sometimes in the upper 50's to low 60s. Now, I have friends in the lower 48 that also keep the species and it gets cold where they live (arizona, california). The difference is its hot durring the day where I live. Rainy but hot and humid. We would never get cold nights with cold days. Even if it was cold at night and rainy durring the day it never really got cold. So, my point is, I agree with Tom mostly and everyone else thats of the same opinion I just think they get a bad wrap with all the they cant take the cold like pardalis. And I'm just saying in my experience (20 years keeping them) they can, they just cant take it day after day. Sorry Tom I feel bad because I responded to your Arizona is the best place in America to raise tortoises post unfavorably (being Hawaiian in Hawaii that tends to happen). I'm not picking on you. Its a matter of geography. I'm 2 hours behind all you in Cali and the east coasters are in bed HA

 

[Neal]

I also think Babcocki's have a bad wrap to some extent. Like Onarock says, they can't take the cold for a prolonged period of time and they SEEM to be more prone to respitory illnesses than other tortoises. I have kept babcocki's for 5 years now and I can honestly say I have rarely had a sniffle and I don't feel like I have put any more effort into their husbandry as I would other tortoises I keep or have kept. Generally they may lack a little in personality, but some of mine are just as personable as any sulcata I've seen. I have yet to own a g.pardalis so I really don't know how they compare to babcocki's.

Though I'm partial to babcocki's I would say if someone has the means to purchase a g.pardalis than purchase that before a babcocki just because they are more rare.

---

Tom you had an "Arizona is the best place to raise tortoise" post? I need to check that out.

 

[WrongFoot]

Hmm, does both pardalis and babcocki shell pattern become the same when they reach their full age as adult?
kinda like this?

 

[Neal]

Hmm, does both pardalis and babcocki shell pattern become the same when they reach their full age as adult?
kinda like this?

Similar, but there are subtle differences. The best way I can describe it is babcocki will typically have more wavy lines and bands on the scutes, whereas pardalis will have more spots and blotchy patterns. As the tortoises get older and weathered, the patterns fade, and the carapace of the two will appear almost identical in color.