That's the thing! The growth is there! Lots of it and it is WHITE! Then you get few black dots at growth lines and those "dots" get bigger, like a black ink wicking into an absorbent fibers of some fabric
Marbeling
- Thread starter MysticCaribou
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The thick white lines between scutes is just new keratin growth. As it cures(if that's the correct term) the colors come through. Some of my Hingebacks grow like that, as they cure the pattern comes through. I'm guessing all torts with a pattern grow like that (Leo's, stars etc). I can't imagine the new growth coming through already with pattern on it, that comes later.
The new white growths is not marbling, it's just new growth I think.
@Markw84 any insight on this subject.
@Anyfoot @Pearly
I've been watching tortoises grow a long time and it is fascinating watching the pattern spread. I found once you start to see a light or dark spot, it is the beginning of a new color coming in. On Leopards and marbled redfoots, it can be completely arbitrary. On stars and radiated, it is the beginning of a ray.
The color sets when the new keratin growth does. It does not change later other than some lightening or darkening because of age and/or sun exposure. white often becomes cream or tan. Dark brown can turn lighter. But the pigment is set in the keratin and does not change at that location or "bleed" as Pearly describes. It is set.
The growth does cause the bleeding effect. As it grows in Pearly's case, the black starts to overwhelm the white, but the same amount of white is there. It has darkened a bit, but the same areas are still the lighter pigment. I have taken Pearly's photos and highlighted three different areas to show how they stayed exactly the same, but with growth and the following expansion of that new pigmentation trend it "looks" like it is bleeding out. It is really just the new growth expanding that change in pigmentation.
That is exactly how the rays start in stars and radiateds. It is actually a tan background and the black that starts to fill in just as in a marbled redfoot. However in stars and radiateds, the pattern becomes set and continues the rest of the tortoises growing life creating beautiful rays. On leopards and marbled redfoots, it will come in, then stop, creating random patterns. Redfoots that exhibit marbling will normally tend to revert back to more and more solid black as they grow larger. Leopards can "spot" their whole life. On stars, the black starts as a wide band and the underlying tan is left to a thin ray. On a radiated, the black is often quite thin and creates multiple thinner, or less, broader tan rays. All new growth from that spot will then be that black color as the scute grows and a ray is created. I am holding a beautiful radiated in the last photo. All those rays started as the separation between dark, black spots next to the areolae.
I've been watching tortoises grow a long time and it is fascinating watching the pattern spread. I found once you start to see a light or dark spot, it is the beginning of a new color coming in. On Leopards and marbled redfoots, it can be completely arbitrary. On stars and radiated, it is the beginning of a ray.
The color sets when the new keratin growth does. It does not change later other than some lightening or darkening because of age and/or sun exposure. white often becomes cream or tan. Dark brown can turn lighter. But the pigment is set in the keratin and does not change at that location or "bleed" as Pearly describes. It is set.
The growth does cause the bleeding effect. As it grows in Pearly's case, the black starts to overwhelm the white, but the same amount of white is there. It has darkened a bit, but the same areas are still the lighter pigment. I have taken Pearly's photos and highlighted three different areas to show how they stayed exactly the same, but with growth and the following expansion of that new pigmentation trend it "looks" like it is bleeding out. It is really just the new growth expanding that change in pigmentation.
That is exactly how the rays start in stars and radiateds. It is actually a tan background and the black that starts to fill in just as in a marbled redfoot. However in stars and radiateds, the pattern becomes set and continues the rest of the tortoises growing life creating beautiful rays. On leopards and marbled redfoots, it will come in, then stop, creating random patterns. Redfoots that exhibit marbling will normally tend to revert back to more and more solid black as they grow larger. Leopards can "spot" their whole life. On stars, the black starts as a wide band and the underlying tan is left to a thin ray. On a radiated, the black is often quite thin and creates multiple thinner, or less, broader tan rays. All new growth from that spot will then be that black color as the scute grows and a ray is created. I am holding a beautiful radiated in the last photo. All those rays started as the separation between dark, black spots next to the areolae.
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Well thank you, Mister Analytical here!!!
very interesting... you are basically telling me here that I am a victim of nothing more than optical illusion.... ok... I can accept that, though still ... my gut is not convinced ... stay with me here. Let me find another couple of pics. 
Tuckers butt few months ago. This was the first area to start going darker. 
I'm now looking at the all-white growth rings
see? Even in previously white are there are streaks of dark! I'm trying to say that previously completely WHITE aureolas have now dark streaks. There is NO uninterrupted white at all any more. I'd think there would be dark streaks but in new growth, but previously completely white rings would REMAIN completely white. Btw that lil Radiated baby is absolutely GORGEOUS!!!! I want one like that!!!!
Ok Mark, my mouth is quicker than my brain. I'm enlarging your pictures with the colored ink markings you had made... you maybe right... i need to look at those closer though
I know, Craig! I wasn't suggesting a new dark growth, but rather some mechanism of releasing pigment into some areas... somehow??? I know! Crazy! Victim of optical illusion
@Pearly I have not watched redfoots grow like I have stars and leopards. I have also studied lots of spotted turtles where "high spot" individuals are highly sought after, so I breed for high spot. I have noticed that spotteds, that normally have very uniformly black carapaces, in captivity will sometimes get more lighter streaks showing up the first few years of growth. Almost like more rapid growth will cause the black pigment to spread out more and create lighter sections. As they age, those will mostly darken and become less and less obvious. With leopard tortoises the black sections often have extremely well defined and sharp contrasted edges, that will become less well defined with age as if the black pigment starts to show through a bit more around the edges of a "spot". It looks like with marbled redfoot tortoises, you have the same thing going on. The stark white will become less stark white and the sharply defined edges become more blurred. My thinking is the carapace is "naturally" dark (full of pigment as keratin forms) and marbling is somehow a suppression of the black pigment, "unnaturally" Varying degrees of pigment may still be in the whiter areas and start showing through with time. That would cause the edges of the black/white transitions to blur with time.
So your idea of "bleeding" is in part correct. The positioning of pigmented features on a tortoise is fixed and does not change, but I believe the "white" sections do often contain some pigment in the keratin that will show through more with age.
Do you guys, or anyone, know of examples of wild, marbled redfoot tortoises?
So your idea of "bleeding" is in part correct. The positioning of pigmented features on a tortoise is fixed and does not change, but I believe the "white" sections do often contain some pigment in the keratin that will show through more with age.
Do you guys, or anyone, know of examples of wild, marbled redfoot tortoises?
Very interesting, Mark! Thank you for taking your time for this
I'm still curious as to why it happens.
If you look at pearly's from a hatchling it started with the areola and the immediate growth was black just like a northern redfoot, then the white marbling kicked in giving the black and white patterns(similar to how a leo grows), then all of a sudden there is a big wide White band of newest growth, this band later turned black and I assume all new growth will be black from now on. So this tort has grown with black and white patterns at first and also had existing white(the wide band) turn black over time after it was grown. It must be natural otherwise we would have seen it amongst northern redfoots by now, this suggests it happens in the wild. Is what I'm thinking.
If you look at pearly's from a hatchling it started with the areola and the immediate growth was black just like a northern redfoot, then the white marbling kicked in giving the black and white patterns(similar to how a leo grows), then all of a sudden there is a big wide White band of newest growth, this band later turned black and I assume all new growth will be black from now on. So this tort has grown with black and white patterns at first and also had existing white(the wide band) turn black over time after it was grown. It must be natural otherwise we would have seen it amongst northern redfoots by now, this suggests it happens in the wild. Is what I'm thinking.
xirxes
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One of my 5 hatchlings has almost a universal lightness/white coloration spreading from growth lines on top of shell, but he cannot be more than 3 months old, more likely 2 months old.
Pearly, did yours start marbling this young? I want to make sure it isn't fungus. It is not responding to antifungal treatment.
Week old photo, more pronounced now.
Pearly, did yours start marbling this young? I want to make sure it isn't fungus. It is not responding to antifungal treatment.
Week old photo, more pronounced now.
xirxes
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No one can say whether that last photo is marbling or fungus?
It's not marbling, marbling comes through with the newest growth.
I don't think it's fungus either. I have one with similar marks on it, and it's basically dried up membrane from in the egg(I think).
I don't think it's fungus either. I have one with similar marks on it, and it's basically dried up membrane from in the egg(I think).
Fungus usually affects their plastron when they sit on wet substrate. The lighter discoloration towards the edges of the scutes maybe hard water stains? Try to wash and rub some organic EVCoconut oil, see what happens. And yes, Tucker started with light growth lines very early on, around his second month. Yours is a very cute baby thoughOne of my 5 hatchlings has almost a universal lightness/white coloration spreading from growth lines on top of shell, but he cannot be more than 3 months old, more likely 2 months old.
Pearly, did yours start marbling this young? I want to make sure it isn't fungus. It is not responding to antifungal treatment.
Week old photo, more pronounced now.
xirxes
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Interesting points! It may be leftover from hatching I suppose. I will stop treating it as fungal.
It is not possibly hard water as I only used RO water in soaks/misting/even original hydrating of coco coir, but I will keep an eye on it as they grow.
I'll keep posted if it expands thanks!
It is not possibly hard water as I only used RO water in soaks/misting/even original hydrating of coco coir, but I will keep an eye on it as they grow.
I'll keep posted if it expands thanks!
I'm trying to zoom in on your baby's picture of growth lines but it gets way too blurry for me to to be sure. It does however look like it marbling process has already started in her/him. Look closely at the growthlines, that "milky" color maybe a giveaway. Then look closer for brighter spots. Those should start getting bigger with each new growth ring. Yes, I do think this baby will be growing some light color!
xirxes
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This stuff is driving me bonkers. It is precisely like the stuff thats on the bottom of the plastrons of 2 of my 5. I think im going to leave them be medication wise after two weeks treatment after that length of 2x per day i don't want to do any unnecessary stress on their new growth.
@Aunt Caffy can you insert your photo of Rowan in this thread. He looks awesome, what is the SCL of Rowan, looks quite big to only just start marbling on the Carapace.
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Those look like growth lines. Marbling along the growth lines have more contrast, more white against the dark. Keep watching it, could be marbling!
Rowan is about three years old. I haven't measured him, but he's had little hints of marbling for over a year now.
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