keeping tortoises in pairs

coledoug1 said:

I just went down to check on them and one of them is right under the hot light and eating the grass that is growing off the floor! This is the first time I have ever seen this. The other one is in the same spot from last night.

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That is a good sign.

About the UV. What brand and type bulb do you have? The regular 10.0 bulbs offer very little UV and they need to be no more than 10-12" away from the tortoise to do anything at all. No UV at all will pass through the plexi. So have your tortoises had no UV for all this time?

The one might still be sitting over in the other side because it knows it should not be in the territory of the other one and its trying to keep a low profile. You need to separate them.

Tom said:

A 40 gram russian hatchling? Man that would be cool.

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Please consider the female that has to lay the egg...

The light is called reptisun 5 uvb. It's approximately 10" from surface bottom. They probably had minimal exposure since I have had them. I corrected this problem today aswell. I also have a coil bulb for reptiles that screws into a light fixture. I am not using it at the moment but I will if u recommend it. Both turtles moved around today after there soaking. They don't seem to have territorial problems. I also have a 4 foot growth light in my fixture aswell for the purpose of growing the vegetation.

The coil bulbs can damage their eyes. I would not use that.

The 5.0 bulbs produce almost no UV. I think your tortoises are lacking in D3 in a bad way. This could be contributing to the slow growth.

You are not grasping what I am trying to tell you about pairs. I'm going to say it one more time and then I'm going to bow out. You NEED to separate them. There does not have to be all out attacking and aggression for this to be a problem. They do not want to share their space with each other. Groups can sometimes work out, but pairs usually do not. Living as a pair is very stressful for both of them. This chronic long term stress can lessen activity levels, reduce appetite and hamper their immune system. It is not good.

As we progress in this discussion, it occurs to me that you are missing the basics of tortoise care. At first I thought you were just doing some things differently in the name of experimentation or testing out a theory. Now I'm thinking that no one has explained the basics of tortoise husbandry and the needs of a hatchling sulcata to you. I see that you've been on the forum for years, so I just assumed you were up to speed on all these things.

Please read these threads and make the necessary changes to your routine and enclosures. You can't house and care for hatchling sulcatas the way you would adult russians.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/

I have read these threads before. I told you that my kids bought me two in December. I wanted to try it out before I found another home for one of them for the sake of my kids. I can only have one enclosure inside and outside for the summer. I have done/fixed my mistakes. If you want to end this thread this way than ok. I am doing and fixing in an immediate fashion.

coledoug1 said:

I have read these threads before. I told you that my kids bought me two in December. I wanted to try it out before I found another home for one of them for the sake of my kids. I can only have one enclosure inside and outside for the summer. I have done/fixed my mistakes. If you want to end this thread this way than ok. I am doing and fixing in an immediate fashion.

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No need to end the thread at all. I just was trying to convey that I'm not going to harp on the pair thing. I've told you several times its a problem and you keeping coming back saying they get along fine. It seemed you either didn't want to hear it, or you just were not understanding, so I gave it one last shot. But now I'm done telling you. You have the info and can choose the course of action that suits you.

Please help me understand something so I can be a better helper of tortoises. A lot of old timers have expressed frustration at dealing with some people who are new to tortoises. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but I have a strong desire to help people out for the sake of the tortoises. Many times I take the time to type up a response and try to help people and the advice is ignored. Sometimes it is argued with. I think it is good for people to question things and try to learn more, but it can be frustrating the person whose advice was asked for when direct advice is repeatedly dismissed or ignored. Here is what I don't understand and I'm asking you to help me out here:

You say you've read those threads before, but you've been housing a pair of tortoises, in a tank with grassy soil for a substrate, with no heat, and no UV. Don't misunderstand. You are not alone here. Lots of people decide to go their own way, and sometimes good things happen that way. What I am wondering is why you read those threads in the past and then ignored most of what they said, and instead did things in a completely contrary way. A way that might end up causing harm to the tortoises.

I'm not attacking or berating you. I'm trying to gain a higher level of understanding of this phenomena. It happens frequently and many very experienced and knowledgable tortoise keepers have left the forum, or just quit posting, citing this phenomenon as a primary cause for their departure. I don't want anyone else to leave our awesome forum, so I appreciate any insight you'd be willing to share.

I did follow the information I read on the threads for the most part. I have raised three Russian tortoises for the last five years two were hatchlings. I have a beautiful outdoor enclosure around a large pond. My son and I built an indoor enclosure in my heated garage. It is not a tank, it is a wooden sided with 4 inches of topsoil for my bottom. I went with the soil so I could mimic the way I have my outdoor enclosure set up. I feel as though my surface is better than what is on the thread because I can plant all types of food that these turtles can pick and eat at their leisure. I have had success with my Russian tortoises this way. My enclosure is set up on a thermostat which keeps it at 85°. I don't know where you got the feeling that it was not heated. I just didn't have a hotspot. I have UV lighting set up at a proper distance that I was told for all the turtles to receive the proper amount. The reason that I went astray on the UV lighting is because I put the plexiglass up to keep the sulcatas a little warmer/humid then there counterparts on the other side which are Russian tortoises. The reason I put on plexiglass was because I felt since the sulcatas were hatchlings they needed to be slightly warmer. What I was doing was periodically approximately 15 hours a week I would take their plexiglass off and allow the UV lighting in on them. From the threads I read they made it sound that it was not mandatory to have it on all the time. At one point I read you even can skip a week/month at a time in the winter. The reason I have been questioning the form is because I felt my cicadas have not been developing as they should be. I very much appreciate all that you have given me so far. I do not want this to end, I feel as though yesterday was certainly a huge progression on the two turtles. It was hard for me to separate the two because each one of my boys bought me one for Christmas. I was hoping I could get away with the success that I feel as I have with my Russian tortoises. I have had no problems in the past five years and they have grown on us, as well in size. But I now see that will not be possible. We have gone into great detail for making our enclosures a fun project as well as a practical setting for these turtles. We also have an assortment of water turtles that live in our man made pond 12 months a year.

That was last night. They are now separated. I just wanted to give I a better idea of the enclosure.

My wife stayed home today due to snow and she said both turtles which are separated now were moving and eating much more then in the past. Hopefully I am not too late on this.

I'm so glad they are doing better!!

Thanks Gingerbee. I hope the trend continues. I will keep you posted.

Tom said:

That is a good sign.

About the UV... No UV at all will pass through the plexi...

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Different formulations of plexiglas and similar materials transmit UV differently. (http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Plastics_Library/UV-Ultra-Violet-Filtering-Plexiglass) A better method of determining UV exposure is to acquire a UV meter. Using the meter will allow you to determine what exposure they are receiving, as well as, when to replace the bulbs. I have had both UV 5 & 10 bulbs that were able to provide > 50 uW/cm2 at up to 20" from the source. Different bulbs even from the same manufacturer vary greatly in their output. I would also be interested in current empirical evidence that the coil type bulbs still generate excessive amounts of short wavelength UV-B or UV-C. This *was* a problem earlier but I find it difficult to believe that has not been resolved. BTW, the UV-C problem was (is?) an issue with some linear tubes, too.

As a suggestion, consider joining the UVB Meter Owners group here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

You can see discussions and actual test results for various UV options in addition to characteristics of these devices not generally discussed.

I found another worthwhile reference: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99272.htm

I just wanted to give everyone an update on my two sulcatas. They are much more active their appetite isn't even comparable to what it was, they are eating very aggressively. In a five day one of them has gained 5 g and the other one gained 6 g.

coledoug1 said:

I just wanted to give everyone an update on my two sulcatas. They are much more active their appetite isn't even comparable to what it was, they are eating very aggressively. In a five day one of them has gained 5 g and the other one gained 6 g.

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Thanks for the update. Glad to hear that they are both doing so well.

Yea good news!!

I am very sorry to say that one of my hatchlings just passed away. The other one that we spoke about seems to be doing very good. My concern is that it is not gaining much weight. Still hovering anywhere from 44 g to 48 g. I purchased him December 27 I believe. He has been fairly active and eats every day an assortment of foods that are all on the care sheet. I soak him anywhere from 2–3 times per day.

Oh no sorry for your loss. I don't keep these guys help will be here soon.

The lack of growth coupled with the unknown history, and now the death of one presents a big red flag. This might explain more:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/