I first noticed the 'tortoise tipping' last night. Then again it was the same one, the biggest one, doing it to a different one. Now that was when they were in the terrarium which is not very big. Outside they seem okay at this point in time. So I think maybe I should just bring them in later when it's lights out time for them and they all sleep. Doing it that way should buy me some time until I figure out what to do. I'm thinking of dividing the terrarium. By next summer I'm hoping they can stay outside all the time.
Hi everybody!
- Thread starter AZTorts
- Start date
Welcome to TFO!
Thank you!
Your babies have some substantial pyramiding going on there. This indicates that habitat is too dry. They need a humid hide and some damp substrate to burrow into.
I typed this up for russians, but I house DT babies exactly the same. Daily soaks are important for babies and will help with this issue too.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
More tips:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
I typed this up for russians, but I house DT babies exactly the same. Daily soaks are important for babies and will help with this issue too.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
More tips:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
Thanks! I do soak them several times a week. I soaked them today but they just keep trying to get out. I have the water come just to where the top and bottom of the shells meet. How long should I keep them in the water when they're trying to get out?
At least 20-30 minutes. Don't worry about them trying to climb out. Its good exercise. Use a tall opaque sided tub.
What substrate are they on? Do they have a humid hide? They need one. Spraying the shells with water a few times a day will help with that pyramiding too.
They are thought of as "desert" animals and usually kept very dry, but wild ones dig and use cooler humid burrows for most of their lives. You babies need a humid "burrow" to hang out in.
Yes, I do have a good opaque plastic bin that I put them in. 20 to 30 minutes a day then? So in other words their shells should be flat?
When they are outside, which is during daylight hours when I'm home to keep an eye on them, they do have 'burrows' they can go into but they rarely do. Only one usually goes in. Most of the time when it's warm they go under a little mint plant. One likes to lay in the dichondra. It's shady in there because there is a roof over the habitat. I'm putting a couple of pictures here but they don't show the whole thing. I hope they come up, I haven't tried loading pictures on this site before. I have read that if they are in damp grass all the time, that's bad for them too.
dshindsley
New Member
Enjoyed your video! Thanks for sharing it.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Not flat, but smooth. When each scute raises up into a cone, like what is started on your babies, it is an indication that things are too dry all the time. Adding humidity (difficult outdoors where you are), daily soaks, shell spraying and humid hides will all help to combat the problem.
Wet grass all the time might present a problem for them, but if you completely soaked a grassy enclosure where you are, how long would it stay wet? My climate is similar to yours and my grass is dry within and hour of the sun hitting it in summer. A nice compromise might be to have some grassy areas and some bare areas all in the same enclosure.
Running misters or sprinklers during these hot months might help too.
Welcome
Hi Michele, and welcome to the Forum!
Thank you Kelly!
Thanks Yvonne!Hi Michele, and welcome to the Forum!
Okay, got ya on the smooth shell. This is all so new to me, when you said "hides" I actually thought you were talking about their skin. LOL
Here is just a little background about these baby torts of mine. I got them 2 months ago from some people who I don't know. They have the parents in what looked to me like a nice big enclosure under a citrus tree. They have 4 adults and one "hide" that the people started for them but the tortoises continued to excavate. My babies hatched last Sept. The people kept them inside in a 10 gallon aquarium with newspaper on the bottom. The light looked like a regular light bulb to me. They fed them pureed broccoli that they froze into cubes. They were given no other source of water. They told me the tortoises needed no water. So I think there were a lot of contributing factors in regards to their shell pyramiding...no food variety...no water...not the right light.
When I brought them home I noticed that one of them did not open it's eyes. So of course it didn't walk or eat. I did a lot of research and managed to figure out a way to "force feed" him. By that I don't mean I shoved food down it's throat. But I did devise a 'tool' out of a straw that enabled me to gently pry open his beak and get some pureed baby food carrots and green beans into his mouth. I also soaked him in water with pureed baby food carrots. And I used Repti Turtle Eye Drops. I was doing all of this for about a week when I happened to be at a Pet Expo where a reptile vet had a booth. I spoke to him and told him about my sick baby and what I was doing. He told me to keep doing it and to add some very tiny pieces of plants, like the grapevine leaves to the baby food I was putting in his mouth. So I did that too. He also prepared me for the worst and said that some of them just don't survive. A couple of days later when I placed all 4 of them out in a patch of sunlight in their enclosure to my delight, the sick one had moved when I went to check on them. I was literally in tears I was so relieved to see a little improvement. Every day he showed improvement. His eyes opened, he walked and ate. Now he looks and acts very healthy, except for that pyramiding.
So after reading what you said about the humidity and then doing more research online, I decided to keep them outside all the time. The 20 gallon aquarium I was putting them in at times is not only too dry, it's too small and they are beginning to turn on each other. At least it appears the largest one is deliberately shoving the two smallest ones over. Outside they share a dog kennel, with a roof, with my boxies. I divided it with cinder blocks. The boxies have access to a garden area so they have quite a bit of space. Eventually I'm going to have to re-home some of the tortoises. I may have a taker for two of them, not sure yet. I didn't mean for this to turn into a book. Anyway, I thought I would attach a video that I took this morning that shows their enclosure. I hope this works, I'm having internet issues... Thank you Tom for your advice.
Wow. Those babies had a horrible start. They are lucky to be alive. I'm so glad they ended up with someone who cares so much about them and is trying to learn so much about how to care for them. I hope you can go back and educate the breeders so that a new batch of hatchlings doesn't have to suffer every year. Frozen broccoli puree??? Sheesh!
So here is something I learned from years of raising a variety of species and many many hatchlings: Babies don't do well outdoors full time. Especially not in dry climates like ours. Sure out in the wild they somehow survive, but our backyards and tiny enclosures are NOT the wild and they can't do all the things they would do out in the wild with the very limited space and environment that we contain them in. Also remember that somewhere around 300-3000 babies die for every one that survives to adulthood in the wild. The great outdoors is very drying and desiccating for little babies and they do MUCH better if they are kept indoors in large enclosure with the right conditions. I use these: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/, but something else could work too. A 10 or 20 gallon tank is WAY too small for even one of these tortoises, but a big horse watering trough or something similar would work. Large kiddie pools have the right diameter foot print, but the low sides are not ideal.
So here is something I learned from years of raising a variety of species and many many hatchlings: Babies don't do well outdoors full time. Especially not in dry climates like ours. Sure out in the wild they somehow survive, but our backyards and tiny enclosures are NOT the wild and they can't do all the things they would do out in the wild with the very limited space and environment that we contain them in. Also remember that somewhere around 300-3000 babies die for every one that survives to adulthood in the wild. The great outdoors is very drying and desiccating for little babies and they do MUCH better if they are kept indoors in large enclosure with the right conditions. I use these: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/, but something else could work too. A 10 or 20 gallon tank is WAY too small for even one of these tortoises, but a big horse watering trough or something similar would work. Large kiddie pools have the right diameter foot print, but the low sides are not ideal.
Thanks again Tom. I honestly don't think I could even find the house where I got the tortoises. I just happened to be driving by with a friend and saw a sign advertising cactus for sale. Next thing I knew I'm telling my husband I brought in more rescue animals. LOL I took a quick look at that first page from your link and will go back to read more a bit later. Like other people said, I have a lot of outdoor space but am limited on indoor space. How old should they be before they are kept outside 24/7? When I got them the man there advised me not to let them hibernate this coming winter. Yet I have read in other places that they should hibernate. I have been getting a lot of my information up to this point from the Sonora Desert Museum website.
http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php#hatchlings
Hibernation is a controversial subject and many people have strong opinions one way or the other. From what I have seen, they are fine if you do, and they are fine if you don't, but in either case, it must be done right. If you don't hibernate them, you are going to need a large indoor space for them.
As for them living outside full time, I don't go by age. I go by size. Usually around 4-5" for DTs. My preference is to have a large suitable indoor enclosure where they can live full time if need be. Then I make a large safe outdoor enclosure and put them outside in fair weather. New hatchlings only go out for an hour or two. As they gain size they stay outdoors longer and longer each day. By the time they are around 4" I usually put them out in the morning and bring them in at night. I wait for late spring time to move them outside full time and I make sure they have proper housing outdoors too. Either a heated secure night box, or an underground "burrow" of some sort.
When babies are started dry as yours were, they often grow much slower than "average", but not always. So you might need large indoor housing for two or three years.
As for them living outside full time, I don't go by age. I go by size. Usually around 4-5" for DTs. My preference is to have a large suitable indoor enclosure where they can live full time if need be. Then I make a large safe outdoor enclosure and put them outside in fair weather. New hatchlings only go out for an hour or two. As they gain size they stay outdoors longer and longer each day. By the time they are around 4" I usually put them out in the morning and bring them in at night. I wait for late spring time to move them outside full time and I make sure they have proper housing outdoors too. Either a heated secure night box, or an underground "burrow" of some sort.
When babies are started dry as yours were, they often grow much slower than "average", but not always. So you might need large indoor housing for two or three years.
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What to do is to keep them separate all the time.
They seem to be okay together as long as they have enough space. I think they might get too stressed when in the terrarium. I'm keeping a close eye on them, trying some different things to see what works.
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