White/yellow flesh? On both sides of torts mouth?

[spursuk]

Hi everyone new here. I have a tortoise (roughly 21 F) not totally certain on breed as she was a gift. We believe she's a leapord although someone on here may be able to tell... For the last few months she's had this yellow/white thing on the side of her mouth under her beak. It now appears to be on both sides. After googling I feared mouth rot however its not discharge and it's not inside her mouth. Apparently they lose their appetite with mouth rot aswell because it hurts to eat but my tortoise is eating and acting normally, has a big appetite and feels heavy. It doesn't help that the nearest exotic vet to us is a long way away. I did buy some tamodine and was using that thinking it might be a wound but I have no idea if it's helped

 

[spursuk]

 

[Michael Bird]

Can you get a close up picture of the tortoise's face without the glass to make it easier to actually see the problem? The reflections from the glass make it hard to see anything more than a light colored spot.

 

[spursuk]

Can you get a close up picture of the tortoise's face without the glass to make it easier to actually see the problem? The reflections from the glass make it hard to see anything more than a light colored spot.

 

[spursuk]

Anyone know what it could be?

 

[Yvonne G]

I think it's just the bone color of her beak.

 

[spursuk]

I think it's just the bone color of her beak.

So nothing to worry about then? It's only that I didn't notice it until fairly recently. This is a picture of her when she was about 1 for comparison.......

 

[TammyJ]

I don't know, but I am asking you to tell us the conditions you keep her in, that is, temperatures, humidity, lighting, substrate and diet? I know this may sound irrelevant, but it's the basis of getting the best possible help from our experts for your beautiful little tortoise. Thanks!

 

[Megatron's Mom]

Yes, you have a leopard tortoise. I can't help more than that but I hope it is nothing to worry about.

 

[spursuk]

Hi thanks for the replies. She's in a part glass enclosure with a temperature of around 25c and humidity 57% . I feed her mainly the picture attached which is meant to be a 'complete balanced diet' on top of dandelion leaves and sometimes add calcium to it. She has a 25w +50w UVA UVB heating lamp.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
Thank you for sharing the details!

Beak looks normal (I trust Yvonne's opinion on that).

I think there are a few things to be improved in her husbandry:
1. Diet. She needs more varied and natural diet (greens, weeds, leaves, succulents). The pellets, you mentioned, can be used as a supplement several times a week. Generally, any type of pellets should not be a base for feeding.
2. Substrate looks like a sandy soil, which is not really good (opposing to common sense). It's not good at keeping and releasing moisture. Also, when coupled with a lack of exercise and low-fiber diet it can cause impactions. Coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch are better alternatives.
3. Possibly, temperatures and humidity are too low (recommendation for this species is about 27C with a basking zone 37-38C and humidity ranging from 50 to 70-80%). Also, a thermometer should be placed a couple of inches above the substrate (just in case).
4. She has some pyramiding which hints that humidity is too low or heat/UVB lights are hanging too low/too powerful or of a wrong type. Can you tell a bit more, what do you use and how is it mounted? Maybe post a few more photos (overview photo of the enclosure would be great too).

Here is the link to a care sheet for leopard tortoises to get more details on keeping:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[spursuk]

Hello!
Thank you for sharing the details!

Beak looks normal (I trust Yvonne's opinion on that).

I think there are a few things to be improved in her husbandry:
1. Diet. She needs more varied and natural diet (greens, weeds, leaves, succulents). The pellets, you mentioned, can be used as a supplement several times a week. Generally, any type of pellets should not be a base for feeding.
2. Substrate looks like a sandy soil, which is not really good (opposing to common sense). It's not good at keeping and releasing moisture. Also, when coupled with a lack of exercise and low-fiber diet it can cause impactions. Coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch are better alternatives.
3. Possibly, temperatures and humidity are too low (recommendation for this species is about 27C with a basking zone 37-38C and humidity ranging from 50 to 70-80%). Also, a thermometer should be placed a couple of inches above the substrate (just in case).
4. She has some pyramiding which hints that humidity is too low or heat/UVB lights are hanging too low/too powerful or of a wrong type. Can you tell a bit more, what do you use and how is it mounted? Maybe post a few more photos (overview photo of the enclosure would be great too).

Here is the link to a care sheet for leopard tortoises to get more details on keeping:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Many thanks for the reply. Very helpful information. Her home is completely enclosed so an overhead picture is not possible. The glass doors open at the front. I have attached an imagine to show how her lamp is positioned. Also this is link to the lamp I use... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086J8VMP5/?tag=

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Many thanks for the reply. Very helpful information. Her home is completely enclosed so an overhead picture is not possible. The glass doors open at the front. I have attached an imagine to show how her lamp is positioned. Also this is link to the lamp I use... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086J8VMP5/?tag=

Yes, this lamp is hanging too low (too small basking area). If it's LED it doesn't have any noticeable heat output (heat is required for D3 synthesis) and it's not good as a UVB/UVA source either (I've looked at Amazon description). This might work with tiny reptiles (putting aside the light output quality of these LED lamps), but not with your tortoise.

And this enclosure looks very undersized. Tortoises need huge space to stay healthy. Think of a single size bed for a small 4-5 inch tortoise. For the leopards who grow large - it's a "room size". If you have a garden and she can roam there, while this enclosure is a "night box", this is okay for the warm months.

You need to change a lot if you are interested in your tortoise well-being. If you have room space for a 4x8 feet enclosure this is great (you can make one out of raised garden beds kit). We'll surely help you to get things right without extreme expenses.

 

[spursuk]

Yes, this lamp is hanging too low (too small basking area). If it's LED it doesn't have any noticeable heat output (heat is required for D3 synthesis) and it's not good as a UVB/UVA source either (I've looked at Amazon description). This might work with tiny reptiles (putting aside the light output quality of these LED lamps), but not with your tortoise.

And this enclosure looks very undersized. Tortoises need huge space to stay healthy. Think of a single size bed for a small 4-5 inch tortoise. For the leopards who grow large - it's a "room size". If you have a garden and she can roam there, while this enclosure is a "night box", this is okay for the warm months.

You need to change a lot if you are interested in your tortoise well-being. If you have room space for a 4x8 feet enclosure this is great (you can make one out of raised garden beds kit). We'll surely help you to get things right without extreme expenses.

This enclosure is actually a new one. Her old one was a slightly larger home made one but we thought this enclosed one would be better for her. We do have a garden yes and in the summer months we allow her to roam outside all day. Unfortunately in the UK summer doesn't last too long. Tbh behaviour wise she seems healthy. Energetic, and a big appetite but I agree about the enclosure size. At the moment space is a bit of an issue however we are getting an extension built on the house soon with a new rooms and there will be more space for a bigger home for her. Would you say that spring weather in the UK is warm enough to let her outside? There's also plenty of dandelion leaves outside which she happily eats all day!! Also could you recommend a good lamp?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

You are right, that "closed type" habitat is better. And I'm glad to know, that you'll be able to provide her enough space in future.

I need to know vivarium height to tell what lamps can be safely used. In the meanwhile, please, consider changing her substrate (for example, to orchid bark, sold by Swell Reptiles under their brand). Proper substrate helps to keep humidity and is known to have less issues than sand.

As for the spring weather, I think 60-65F (15-18C) in a bright sunny day will be fine for a short walk. She should be watched closely - once she starts to slow down and seek a hide, that usually means that body temperature is too low and it's time to bring her in for a warm bath and put in the enclosure. Such short walks under midday sun (2-3 hours a week) will help her to get enough UVB.

 

[spursuk]

Thanks for the info. Swell reptiles is where we ordered her current substrate from funnily enough. Orchid bark sounds good.

Her enclosure is 18 inches tall.

I'm also a bit concerned about her size. Again she acts like a healthy tort and feels heavy , but she's only 9 inches long x 5 inches wide. But I've read mixed data regarding average leapord tortoise size, I've read they can grow to 16 inches but elsewhere I've seen 9-12 inches stated as average?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

With 18 inches enclosure and 3-4 inches of substrate, I'll have to use "tropical" or "forest" lamp types (like ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia Forest 6%, like this one: https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-prot5-kit-forest-6#prot5-kit-6-24w ) . These are long straight tubes, you will need the shortest one and mount it alongside, over one half of the enclosure. Lamp should be used with a timer, 4 hours around midday. Expected lifespan of a lamp (with such timings and outdoor access whenever possibe) may be up to 4 years, after that lamp should be replaced (lamp itself, without fixture costs less than the whole kit).

Also, you will need to provide a basking lamp, mounted around the middle of the UVB tube (some heat is required to synthesize vitamin D3 from UVB). Simple incandescent lamp will work, but I'm afraid you can get one only from pet stores now (like this: https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-solar-basking-floodlight). Basking zone temperatures should be around 95-100F. I guess, 50W should be sufficient. This lamp should be on timer for 12 hours.

Her size maybe be a normal variation or be a result of husbandry (lack of exercise in the winter, insufficient UVB to process calcium or diet). Leopards have some regional size variations (like most tortoise species) so an "average size" can be misleading. I think, she might still gain some growth in a larger, properly set up enclosure.

 

[spursuk]

With 18 inches enclosure and 3-4 inches of substrate, I'll have to use "tropical" or "forest" lamp types (like ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia Forest 6%, like this one: https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-prot5-kit-forest-6#prot5-kit-6-24w ) . These are long straight tubes, you will need the shortest one and mount it alongside, over one half of the enclosure. Lamp should be used with a timer, 4 hours around midday. Expected lifespan of a lamp (with such timings and outdoor access whenever possibe) may be up to 4 years, after that lamp should be replaced (lamp itself, without fixture costs less than the whole kit).

Also, you will need to provide a basking lamp, mounted around the middle of the UVB tube (some heat is required to synthesize vitamin D3 from UVB). Simple incandescent lamp will work, but I'm afraid you can get one only from pet stores now (like this: https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-solar-basking-floodlight). Basking zone temperatures should be around 95-100F. I guess, 50W should be sufficient. This lamp should be on timer for 12 hours.

Her size maybe be a normal variation or be a result of husbandry (lack of exercise in the winter, insufficient UVB to process calcium or diet). Leopards have some regional size variations (like most tortoise species) so an "average size" can be misleading. I think, she might still gain some growth in a larger, properly set up enclosure.

Apologies for the late reply. I have now purchased everything you suggested in this post. I'm now a bit confused about setting it up, does the basking lamp attach to the UVB tube?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Apologies for the late reply. I have now purchased everything you suggested in this post. I'm now a bit confused about setting it up, does the basking lamp attach to the UVB tube?

No, it just should be mounted close to it. The idea is to combine UVB from tube with heat and visible light from basking lamp over the same area to mimic sunlight.

 

[Yvonne G]

Many thanks for the reply. Very helpful information. Her home is completely enclosed so an overhead picture is not possible. The glass doors open at the front. I have attached an imagine to show how her lamp is positioned. Also this is link to the lamp I use... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086J8VMP5/?tag=

The lamp is much too close to the top of the shell, and it looks like the tortoise is living in a desert. There needs to be a whole lot more moisture in there.