VitaShell???

[Merrick]

Tom, you know I have lots of respect for your work with Tortoises!

BUT..

You only did your ran your experiment for 3 months. I don't think that is nearly long enough to come to a proper conclusion! I know that the growth rate of Hatchlings can be pretty dramatic but Vita-Shell is not a Quick Fix kinda product.

Now, if you ran it for the 2 years that you think hatchling should be in a Hot/Humid conditions (during the formative years of their inner shell) THEN you would have a solid foundation to claim it makes no difference.

You never gave Vita-Shell a true test. You used one container on several Torts and call your experiment good. Wich is really kinda sad because you do so much good for the Tortoise Community but did a half-assed experiment with this one product. People take your word as "The Standard" when raising torts and when you "poopoo" a product because "You did a side by side experiment", well, it really becomes "LAW" in the eyes of most who raise torts.

That's all I have....

I am not sure about vita shell but I agree the test should have been longer

 

[SteveW]

Tom, you know I have lots of respect for your work with Tortoises!

BUT..

You only did your ran your experiment for 3 months. I don't think that is nearly long enough to come to a proper conclusion! I know that the growth rate of Hatchlings can be pretty dramatic but Vita-Shell is not a Quick Fix kinda product.

Now, if you ran it for the 2 years that you think hatchling should be in a Hot/Humid conditions (during the formative years of their inner shell) THEN you would have a solid foundation to claim it makes no difference.

You never gave Vita-Shell a true test. You used one container on several Torts and call your experiment good. Wich is really kinda sad because you do so much good for the Tortoise Community but did a half-assed experiment with this one product. People take your word as "The Standard" when raising torts and when you "poopoo" a product because "You did a side by side experiment", well, it really becomes "LAW" in the eyes of most who raise torts.

That's all I have....

Hmmm. I'm not sure I follow the logic here. If you are proposing augmented husbandry, wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to demonstrate rather than somebody else to disprove? If three months is too short for meaningful results, isn't three test subjects too few?
Lastly, if the torts in question were raised dry, but vitashell did prevent pyramiding, wouldn't the concern be that the good 'cosmetics' were hiding possible health effects?

I don't intend these to be rhetorical or pejorative questions. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Zamric]

I'm not putting the "Burden of Proof" on anyone.

I am only a Keeper. I have only 3 torts because I am a responsible Keeper with limited space.

Tom is a Breeder he has lots of torts from many sources and is always recording stats and tweeking habituates to achieve maximum results. Because of this, he has found that a Hot/Humid environment for hatchlings is ideal for raising smooth shelled Torts. He is hands down one of the best!

As a Breeder, he also has resources most Keepers can only dream of! All I said was that with THIS petculare "side by side", he should have gone much longer to prove or disprove what he started.

And as for me and mine, I've used Vita-shell for 3 years on my little ones and 10 years for WalkingRock. The Rock no longer gets a regular rub down because he is just to big and the little one will get it for some time to come.

I don't care for "Proof" that it works, I'm already convinced, so I use it and promote it.

And as for the cosmetics of a Smooth Shells hiding problems or other Heath issues... I don't think so.

 

[Alaskamike]

In the hobby , as a keeper , I find my tendency is to listen carefully to the experience and knowledge of others then make up my own mind.

We would love to have controlled scientific experimental results to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one method or another is superior. Frequently this is just not available.

Sometimes we just have to fall back on the old adage " you can't argue with success " as we work with different methods and produce results. I remember reading the speculation in the high humidity debates some time ago that while it produced smooth shells no one could know if it was inadvertently causing metabolic problems way down the line. Who can run a 30 year experiment? Not gonna happen.

I've seen similar critiques in the coconut oil thread under debatable topics. This is also not an experiment in scientific terms , but the use on some tortoises and seeing results. That's why it is debatable.

When we use others results and what science we know and understand we can tweak our own care for improvement. Gains in the hobby are most often made this way. And sometimes they are hard fought with much controversy.

,I've had to modify my ideas and reverses myself several times when it became apparent I was wrong.

Personally , I like when others make me think and challenge my ideas. In the end , it is the tortoises that gain and have better lives.

It is hardest for the novice keepers to sort through the ideas. Fortunately the vast majority of experienced keepers here agree on the basics. There are still - and always will be - details that we explore.

One area I see as ongoing in this is mitigating the desiccating effects of overhead heat lamps.
High humidity is one method that works - experience has proven this

It is also possible that a shell treatment like vita she'll or coconut oil may do the same ( or similar ) thing. The jury is out.

 

[Boggy]

wow