Tortoise Legs

[Ted Bean]

Hi,

I need some help, my daughter has a three year old Herman tortoise whcih has been absolutely fine since we got it two years ago. Within the last week she noticed it seemed to stop eating. We left it for two days and still no sign of eating. Tonight I hand-fed it and it ate a lot, it seemed really hungry - so here's the problem, it seems to have devleoped a problem with it's front legs - it seems to push itself around using it's back legs - the front legs are working and retract when you touch them but usually if you hold it in your hand it pushes away with it's front legs - tonight it couldn't seem to push with any pressure. I'm guessing it's not been eating because it can't get to it's food bowl? In itself it seems fine bright eyed and a clean nose. I've checked for any cuts or ticks but all seems fine - it hasn't been in any trauma or anything. The only thing different we've done is to let it have a wander (supervised) around the garden during the recent hot spell (in the UK) it normally lives in a heated tank in the bedroom - any ideas/suggestions greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

 

[spikethebest]

Welcome to the forum. I don't know what the problem is, but I am sure someone will respond quickly to help you out. If you can post some pics of the tortoise, and its habitat, and the garden, I am sure that will be helpful.

 

[Ted Bean]

Thanks for the quick reply, here's a photo of the tortoise in it's house, cant do a garden shot it's dark...if anyone needs further info let me know.

Cheers

 

[Laura]

Any time outside in the Sunlight?
What is the diet?
What kind of Calcium?
Is the shell hard of soft?

 

[Ted Bean]

Thanks for your questions, answers as follows.

No too much natural sunlight as it's not often hot enough for him to go outside but have a sunlight tube in the tank

Diet of fresh fruit and veg daily - cucumber, rocket, lettuce, apple, banana, tomato (not all at the same time!)

Natural calcium dusted on his food twice a week (as per owners instructions 2 years ago)

Shell is hard

Hope that helps

 

[mightyclyde]

When reptiles stop using their legs or have sluggish leg movements, most often the cause is poor calicum absorption. Stop feeding him "wet" treats like bananas, tomatoes, and cucumbers, and put more leafy greens in his dish <avoid kale and spinich>. Increase his protein to twice a week <my Hermann's loves mazuri diet>. Choose greens like raddicio, endive, escarole, dandilions, and collards, and increase the calcium dusting... I "season" my Hermann's food every morning with calcium, but I'm sure other owners can argue that this could be done less. It sounds like you may have to hand feed him for a few days before he's feeling better.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Ted:

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know anything about Hermann's tortoises, however, by looking at your picture, it looks like the front legs are swollen. Can you take him to the vet?

 

[Livingstone]

Anybody taken him out, possibly dropped on front feet?

How hot is the glass in that tank? especially where his hole is?

X-rays first, blood work second.

 

[Ted Bean]

Thanks to everyone for your help/advice. I'm pretty certain he hasn't been dropped or bumped by anyone. I'll try the different diet but he is reluctant to eat leaf greens by hand but will take fruit quite eagerly, will try the calcium dusting more frequently.

The overall temperature in the tank is normally around 26/27 degrees with his house at the opposite end to the heat lamp, the glass is coller than this and he cant touch it unless he stands up on back legs.

He is moving around tonight but he seems to keep his front legs tucked up close to his head and uses them for 'steering' but is definitely pushing himself along with his back legs which appear to be fine.

I'm going to give the vet a call tomorrow to see if there's a specialist available.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[movealongmosey]

Tortoises are always reluctant to eat leafy greens when they're regularly fed fruit, which I dont blame them MORE FRUIT! My suggestion is still feeding him small amounts of fruit, but hide it with a good amount of greens. That way he'll have to work for the fruit. Legs also look swollen to me

 

[Tom]

Here are some possibilities:
1. He ate something in the garden, like a toxic mushroom possibly.
2. Bit by a spider.
3. Paralysis and swollen limbs are common sign of Metabolic Bone Disease. Given your diet, lack of sunshine and your lack of indoor UV, this would be my first guess. "Sunlight tubes" are very ineffective in my experience. Look into a Mercury Vapor Bulb for the future, either way.
4. What is that substrate? Is it cedar chips? If so that may be the source of your problem. Cedar gives off toxic fumes and in a closed space like that, it could do some serious damage.

Good luck figuring it out and I hope he gets better.

 

[Yvonne G]

If you chop up the greens then pour fruit juice over them and mix it up good, you can fool him into eating the greens.

Let us know how your vet visit turns out.

 

[Ted Bean]

Hi,

Sorry for the very long delay in responding but we have been under the vet for over a month now!

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions much appreciated. I am fast losing faith in the vet and feel I'm thowing money at him for nothing so I am back to speak to you, the real experts!

Since July we have been giving him the meds prescribed by the vet:

0.3mls of Zolcal-D daily orally
5mls of Critical Care Formula daily orally
0.05 mls of Baytril every other day orally
Warm bath in Critical Care Formula for 15 mins each day

1. Here's the problem...he is very alert and if you put him down he races across the floor - BUT he has very strong back legs but no strength in his front legs, so he pushes himself along - his front legs move but he seems to have no strength in them to life him up.
2. His shell is soft underneath but hard on top i.e. you can push it in and if you hold him you can feel his body moving inside the shell!
3. He hasn't eaten anything of substance for 8 weeks so I assume he is getting what he needs from the meds - as I say, he is very alert and bright eyed.
4. The vet said it was sever calcium defficiency so I assume the meds are to treat this - he had no broken bones or any other injuries that the vet could see - just to re-cap he lost the movement in his front legs almost overnight - if he has serious calcium defficiency why aren't his back legs affected and why did it happen so quickly!
5. He wont eat anything - we have tried all manner of greens and fruit but he makes no attempt to eat - he used to eat a lot.

So I'm really not sure what to do next so I ask you, with a wealth of expertise between you, what you think?

I saw the comment about the substrate - I don't know what type of chips they are but they are sold as tortoise substrate - should I try something different - I will also switch the light as suggested.

Sorry for the long post but I'm frustrated that I can't do anything for the little fella!!

I'm no tortoise expert but I have owned another tortoise for 5 years who lives in the garden and he has been perfectly well living of the veg we give him and what he scavenges for - where does he get his calcium from? (he's not a Hermanns) - I dont know how old he is or what breed he is, we were given him by someone who was moving away but we think he is in excess of 15 years old.

Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated

Thanks you! rant over!!

 

[Yvonne G]

Your garden tortoise does well because he's getting his calcium from the food he finds outside. The calcium won't do the body any good unless it can have the UV from the sun to make it work. That's why your house tortoise is suffering from metabolic bone disease (MBD). He might have gotten calcium from foods and supplements, but without the correct UV from either a good UV light or the sun, the calcium doesn't work.

I doubt Baytril will do anything. I didn't think the tortoise needed an antibiotic.

But the Critical care is to keep food in the digestive tract and it has the necessary nutrients for life. But like said above, unless you provide him with sunshine or a good UV light, the calcium will pass right through the body and won't do him any good.

MBD causes weakness in the limbs, poor bone mass and soft shell.

 

[Ted Bean]

Thanks Emysemys for some great advice - the vet has never mentioned the lighting - I will source new light tomorrow. Thank you

 

[HarleyK]

I would be most worried about metabolic bone disease over time. This could be the scenario, esp if the tort is 3 years of age....I have seen geckos with MBD and they can barely walk and when they do they tremble....very sad sight. You need to provide calcium supplements + D3 from supplement or light source that emits UVB rays. I am not sure if greeks chew on cuddlebone, but I would provide one into the cage as well. *hermans

 

[Becki]

Geez, I would think your vet would ask about lighting. I am rooting for your little guy...hope you have some good news once the light is changed.

 

[Ted Bean]

Thanks again - Can anyone suggest the correct light that I need - I am worried that if I go to the local Pet Supermarket I'm going to be given something that isn't upt o the job - someone has mentioned a Mercury Vapour bulb? or do I look for a tube that states it gives of UVB rays?

Is MBD reversible or is the damage permanent?

Also anyone any clues as to how I convince a tortoise to eat?

Cheers

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Thanks again - Can anyone suggest the correct light that I need - I am worried that if I go to the local Pet Supermarket I'm going to be given something that isn't upt o the job - someone has mentioned a Mercury Vapour bulb? or do I look for a tube that states it gives of UVB rays?

Is MBD reversible or is the damage permanent?

Also anyone any clues as to how I convince a tortoise to eat?

Cheers

Hi Ted, I use the Exo Terra SolarGlo Mercury Vapour Lamp, they do two wattages, I think it's 125w or 160w, are you in the UK? If you are they're about £40, while the PowerSun ones are about £80! Quite steep for a lamp but if you use uv tubes instead you have to replace them at least every 6-8 months so the mvb works out cheaper in the end.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Thanks again - Can anyone suggest the correct light that I need - I am worried that if I go to the local Pet Supermarket I'm going to be given something that isn't upt o the job - someone has mentioned a Mercury Vapour bulb? or do I look for a tube that states it gives of UVB rays?

Is MBD reversible or is the damage permanent?

Also anyone any clues as to how I convince a tortoise to eat?

Cheers
Hi i use the Solar Glo Murcury Bulb 125wats too, And i got mine for £36 from Pets at Home. I live in the UK too and know how frustrating the weather is here, unless they have access to a greenhouse or shed with a heat lamp it normally too cold for them. Hopefully when the lamp is changed and ur little tort is getting uvb and uva he will pick up and the apertite will come back just keep trying to hand feed, mine loves Dandilion leaves and will rake through all her food to find them. Good luck and hope he improves soon