To hibernate or not!

[jane100]

Hi,
I have two delightful Herman's Juveniles. Shell hatched July 2011 and Tiger August 2011. For the last two winters I have kept them awake using UV and heat lamp and feeding grown weeds and they have done really well. This year my breeder and other advice suggested a short hibernation would keep them in tip top health so I began to research a suitable place to do this. I was given a camping fridge but it went too low and so investigated an incubator which can also go to hibernation temperatures. When I asked shops I was advised that they were probably too young. I then checked their measurements against Jacksons Ratio. Shell is 90cms and weighs 136g, that puts her at the very start of the graph. Tiger is only 70cms and weighs 95g, she isn't even on the graph. So now I'm wondering whether to keep them awake again. That's quite a relief but I want to do the best for them. Advice...........................................:

 

[wellington]

Hello and Welcome. I don't brumate, so I will let others help.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Hi,
I have two delightful Herman's Juveniles. Shell hatched July 2011 and Tiger August 2011. For the last two winters I have kept them awake using UV and heat lamp and feeding grown weeds and they have done really well. This year my breeder and other advice suggested a short hibernation would keep them in tip top health so I began to research a suitable place to do this. I was given a camping fridge but it went too low and so investigated an incubator which can also go to hibernation temperatures. When I asked shops I was advised that they were probably too young. I then checked their measurements against Jacksons Ratio. Shell is 90cms and weighs 136g, that puts her at the very start of the graph. Tiger is only 70cms and weighs 95g, she isn't even on the graph. So now I'm wondering whether to keep them awake again. That's quite a relief but I want to do the best for them. Advice...........................................:

In the 40 years I've kept tortoises, I've never brumated (hibernated) mine...it's not required for keeping them healthy, and it's always a bit of a risk.

If you do decide to do so, be VERY careful and be sure and follow the directions to the letter...even the wild, tortoises don't always survive brumation, and it's trickier in captivity.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

From all the reading and 13 yrs of my own torts brumated is only important
If your going to or want to breed the torts

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

From all the reading and 13 yrs of my own torts brumated is only important
If your going to or want to breed the torts

Actually, a lot of folks have successfully bred tortoises w/o brumation...some report larger clutches with brumation, some dispute that.

I think the main (and possibly only) advantage to brumation is that it's easier/cheaper to brumate large numbers of tortoises than to find the same number of tortoises food through the cold season.

Probably a big deal when breeding tortoises is a source of income, but for most hobbyists, not really too much of a consideration.

 

[ascott]

If you are not solid in your confidence to support the brumation process then I would wait until next year, this will allow you time to plump em up and to get a solid plan set for you and their hibernacle...

Brumation is a natural part of the life cycle for some species of torts and I am one that believes support of this part of their life is as important as food, exercise, hydration and sun time....but you need to be solid in your plan so you then only have the normal worries the first time or two or three or ten times around

 

[THBfriend]

even the wild, tortoises don't always survive brumation, and it's trickier in captivity.

Trickier in captivity? On the contrary! You're right that tortoises don't always surive brumation in the wild. That's usually due to a poorly chosen hibernaculum and bad weather - the hibernaculum might get flooded by rain or melting water, it might not be insulated well enough and reach critically low temperatures, a period of warm weather followed by another cold period might prematurely awaken the tortoise who then leaves the hibernaculum but can't get back to shelter in time, and so on.

In captivity, you can eliminate pretty much all of those risk factors, because you control the environment.


jane100:

It's normal that you're worried about hibernation if you've never done it before. But it gets easier with practice. You can postpone it to next year, but at one point you'll have to start. Unless you intend to never hibernate your tortoises at all, like Terry.

If you follow the established hibernation guides and regularly check temperature, humidity and weight of the tortoises, there should be little risk.
Also, I'd like to point out that there's no such thing as "too young for hibernation". Tortoises hibernate in the wild even as hatchlings, so I let all my hatchlings hibernate right from the start (unless they appear to be sick or too weak, which has never been the case). Last winter for example, I hibernated seven Eastern Hermann's hatchlings for a full five months (beginning of November to beginning of April). The smallest one weighed just 17.0 grams and went down to 16.2 grams over the course of those five months. No problems at all, nor with the 20 or so other hatchlings I've hibernated in the years before.
As a beginner, you should however start with a shorter hibernation period, let's say two to three months, until you've gained more experience and confidence with the process.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

even the wild, tortoises don't always survive brumation, and it's trickier in captivity.

Trickier in captivity? On the contrary! You're right that tortoises don't always surive brumation in the wild. That's usually due to a poorly chosen hibernaculum and bad weather - the hibernaculum might get flooded by rain or melting water, it might not be insulated well enough and reach critically low temperatures, a period of warm weather followed by another cold period might prematurely awaken the tortoise who then leaves the hibernaculum but can't get back to shelter in time, and so on.

In captivity, you can eliminate pretty much all of those risk factors, because you control the environment.

Not actually true...many tortoises have died, for various reasons, while artificially brumated. It's simple enough to over-winter them and thus you can daily monitor their health...not so when they're sleeping 24 hours a day for 2-5 months.

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

By the same token, bears in captivity do not hibernate, yet almost always live longer than they usually do in the wild.

 

[ascott]

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

Terry, if you don't know this by now--- I do like ya However, here I have to interject....this is more opinion than fact; what I mean by this is, we humans do not know what entirely transpires when a tort is brumating--we only can assume....and "I" personally believe that this time of rest is imperative for more reasons than that stated above

I am going to share the following link with you....you will see how passionate folks can become when this simple word is spoken;

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38255.html

My suggestion to you--- would be to find where you are comfortable with this topic and proceed from there...again, just a suggestion...

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

Terry, if you don't know this by now--- I do like ya However, here I have to interject....this is more opinion than fact; what I mean by this is, we humans do not know what entirely transpires when a tort is brumating--we only can assume....and "I" personally believe that this time of rest is imperative for more reasons than that stated above

I am going to share the following link with you....you will see how passionate folks can become when this simple word is spoken;

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38255.html

My suggestion to you--- would be to find where you are comfortable with this topic and proceed from there...again, just a suggestion...

I'm quite familiar with that thread, of course...on the last few pages a former member and I argued a bit in it, and he seemed to be even more "pro-brumation" than you, and more closed-minded than most...

My thoughts on brumation are based on 40 years of keeping various species, primarily European, starting when I inherited my grandfather's Eastern Hermann's upon his passing, at age 17. By the time this came about, she'd been his pet since WWII, about 32 years, and she then shared my life for another 19, and, for a bit over 50 years, she never was never artificially brumated.

Consider that when Grandfather Vic found her, she was an adult, so probably at least 10 years old, and possibly much older, and Eastern Hermann's tortoises seem to live, on average, to be around 30-ish, in the wild (http://www.pondturtle.com), but that's considering that there is predation involved. Anedotal evidence is that a Eastern Hermann's may, in extremely rare cases reach 90, (while the longest a human has lived, on record, is possibly 121 years, how many have you met that reached even 100?).

Thus, the idea that not brumating one's tortoise shortens their lifespan is not supported, as there are quite a few non-brumated pets that have survived quite a bit longer than the average wild one.

---

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

Terry, if you don't know this by now--- I do like ya However, here I have to interject....this is more opinion than fact; what I mean by this is, we humans do not know what entirely transpires when a tort is brumating--we only can assume....and "I" personally believe that this time of rest is imperative for more reasons than that stated above

I am going to share the following link with you....you will see how passionate folks can become when this simple word is spoken;

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38255.html

My suggestion to you--- would be to find where you are comfortable with this topic and proceed from there...again, just a suggestion...

Actually, if you read that thread, you'll see that, on the last few pages, a former member, who like you, mistakenly believes that we can successfully recreate Nature, and I discuss the matter quite a bit.

My thinking is based of scientific data and personal experience of about 40 years experience. When I was 17, I inherited my grandfather's pet Hermann's tortoise, a souvenir of WWII. She'd been, at that point, under his care for nearly 32 years, and I had her for about 19 more, so, in all, she'd been a pet for a little over 50 years.

Grandfather Vic told me that she was an adult when he found her, so she was quite likely at least 10 years old upon their meeting up, and possibly older, so when she passed away, was probably at least 60 yoa.

Now, consider that, in the wild, the average lifespan of an Eastern Hermann's is something like 30 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann's_tortoise), due to predation and other factors, and while there's some anecdotal evidence of a Hermann's living to 90, that's like that lady who made it to 121...an exceptional case.

The reality is that not brumating our tortoises does not seem to have any adverse effects on their health or longevity.

 

[THBfriend]

Not actually true...many tortoises have died, for various reasons, while artificially brumated. It's simple enough to over-winter them and thus you can daily monitor their health...not so when they're sleeping 24 hours a day for 2-5 months.

Yes, it is true. As you say, if tortoises die during brumation, there is always a reason, and in captivity it usually comes down to human error. They don't die randomly during brumation. You could monitor the health of a brumating tortoise daily as well, though that is excessive and unnecessary.

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

Wrong, that's not the only advantage. I've told you before, but apparently you're unwilling to listen or to learn. If you've built a nice outdoor enclosure for your tortoises, as you should, because that's much better for the animals than living indoors under lamps all the time, and if you happen to live in a place with cold winters (you know, like wild Hermann's tortoises actually do), then what? Should you force the tortoises to move indoors, if you even have the means to accomodate them there? Or should you let them follow their natural instincts and brumate?

Our adult tortoises stay outside in the garden the whole year. In fall, they burrow themselves inside their shelter and brumate there until spring. That's not "artifical brumation", that's natural.

The reality is that not brumating our tortoises does not seem to have any adverse effects on their health or longevity.

The keyword here is "seem" - nobody knows for sure, so that's more of an opinion than a fact. While your anecdote about your grandfather's pet Hermann's tortoise is nice, it's just another case of anecdotal evidence. If as you say your thinking is based on scientific data, then you certainly know that individual experiences are insignificant. You need much larger sample sizes for conclusive results.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Not actually true...many tortoises have died, for various reasons, while artificially brumated. It's simple enough to over-winter them and thus you can daily monitor their health...not so when they're sleeping 24 hours a day for 2-5 months.

Yes, it is true. As you say, if tortoises die during brumation, there is always a reason, and in captivity it usually comes down to human error. They don't die randomly during brumation. You could monitor the health of a brumating tortoise daily as well, though that is excessive and unnecessary.

I do not feel that actively making sure that my pets, tortoise and otherwise, are in optimum health, on a daily basis, is "excessive"...it is merely the responsibility I accepted when I made the decision to keep them.

And considering that the only advantage to artificial brumation is that you don't have to feed them, it's really more for the convenience of the tortoise keeper than something the tortoise needs to stay healthy.

Wrong, that's not the only advantage. I've told you before, but apparently you're unwilling to listen or to learn. If you've built a nice outdoor enclosure for your tortoises, as you should, because that's much better for the animals than living indoors under lamps all the time, and if you happen to live in a place with cold winters (you know, like wild Hermann's tortoises actually do), then what? Should you force the tortoises to move indoors, if you even have the means to accomodate them there? Or should you let them follow their natural instincts and brumate?

My tortoise live outside 24/7 from approx. mid April to mid October (depending on weather conditions), not inside only under lights. And, on sufficiently warm sunny days, as we get even in January around here, they got out for a few hours of sunlight, just as they would in the wild.

It is confused thinking to ever believe that we can recreate "natural conditions", and whether you can admit it or not, your conditions are not "natural" to your tortoises unless you are living in the land from which they originate, and they have no walls to enclose them for your convenience.

Are you feeding your tortoises strictly on plants indigenous to Yugoslavia, Romania or wherever your personal tortoise(s) came from? Probably not, you're feeding them local weeds and produce, right?

Are you planning to euthanize them when they reach 30 yoa (the natural average lifespan of a wild Hermann's tortoise) or are you going to slide on that aspect of natural keeping and let them live, artificially, their entire lives? Are you going to stock in your yard with the natural predators of the Hermann's tortoise (rats, badgers, magpies, foxes, eagles, wild boar, and many other animals)? I certainly hope not!

Our adult tortoises stay outside in the garden the whole year. In fall, they burrow themselves inside their shelter and brumate there until spring. That's not "artifical brumation", that's natural.

In captivity, it's as artificial as is every other aspect of keeping a wild animal as a pet. Don't delude yourself. In the wild, few tortoise have the luxury of a man-made shelter full of straw, possibly with a heating element to maintain optimum temperatures, in a man-made garden, you know.

Again, if you're lucky enough to live near a zoo, go take a look at the bears in the winter...they're not holed up until spring, because the reasons why they hibernate (cold and lack of food) are not an issue, and in the same way, temperate zone tortoises will not brumate if they have warmth, available food and appropriate light cycles, as can be supplied inside or for those of us living in warmer climates...

And, yes, it's all "artificial", just as every other aspect of keeping a reptile for a pet, if we care to be 100% honest...

The reality is that not brumating our tortoises does not seem to have any adverse effects on their health or longevity.

The keyword here is "seem" - nobody knows for sure, so that's more of an opinion than a fact. While your anecdote about your grandfather's pet Hermann's tortoise is nice, it's just another case of anecdotal evidence. If as you say your thinking is based on scientific data, then you certainly know that individual experiences are insignificant. You need much larger sample sizes for conclusive results.

Are you under the impression that I'm the only person to ever over-winter a temperate zone tortoise and have it live MUCH longer than the average wild one, in perfect health, or that she was the only tortoise I've ever successfully kept healthy?

Overwintering tortoises (and other temperate zone animals) been going on for well over two centuries, to my knowledge.

Overwintering IS a viable way to keep our temperate zone tortoises perfectly healthy, and there's no downside. While you're looking at the bears at your local zoo, stick your head in the door at the herpetarium...you'll see quite a few temperate zone species there on display, too, and the majority of zoos (sadly, not 100% of them, though) take good care of their charges, actually.

 

[ascott]

Did I mention that with the mere mention of the words Brumation or Hibernation---passion will ignite on both sides.

I can respect different folks heart felt passion on their take on this subject....I am no more going to change the way I feel about this subject anymore than I would expect someone else to.

I simply say, please research and research and oh yeah, research and then form your own opinion base....from there you will find the road that sets well with you.

Terry clearly can not see any benefits in brumation for certain species of torts....and I can not see any benefit from withholding brumation for certain species....simple as that.

I can respectfully agree to disagree

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Did I mention that with the mere mention of the words Brumation or Hibernation---passion will ignite on both sides.

I can respect different folks heart felt passion on their take on this subject....I am no more going to change the way I feel about this subject anymore than I would expect someone else to.

I simply say, please research and research and oh yeah, research and then form your own opinion base....from there you will find the road that sets well with you.

Terry clearly can not see any benefits in brumation for certain species of torts....and I can not see any benefit from withholding brumation for certain species....simple as that.

I can respectfully agree to disagree

As can I, and you were (mostly) polite about your opinions.

 

[ascott]

you were (mostly) polite

I can accept that Terry

 

[tglazie]

I always appreciate Terry's passion on this subject. Hibernation/brumation is tricky, and if you have a small group or a single animal, it is probably best to overwinter. The climate in the Mediterranean zone has changed significantly over the past ten thousand years, and tortoises have adapted, so it would make sense that hibernation is a survival option, not necessarily a requirement. This would also make sense given the case of Moroccan Testudo graeca, where coastal populations remain active year round while interior populations hibernate. It is arguable as to whether or not hibernation is necessary, and frankly, we just don't have the scientific studies to prove it either way. I personally have never had a problem with hibernation, but I control as many of the variables as possible through use of a glass fronted display fridge. If you have many animals, as I do, then it is often best to hibernate, as Terry said, as a convenience measure. I find it essential for successful breeding in the case of Marginated torts, but I can't say if this is definitive or if it is simply a case of anecdotal evidence. But yeah, hatchlings and juveniles should, in my opinion, not hibernate until their third or fourth year. They simply do not have the body mass to sustain any fluctuation in temperature that could occur. 100% control over environmental factors is impossible for the average person. A power outage, equipment failure, all of these are possible, and should they happen, returning the tort to lower temperatures may prove detrimental. Hibernation can wait until you and your torts are ready. Until that time, there's a lot to think about.

T.G.