Tiny Sulcata. 21 grams! Please Help!

[BryanR]

Hello. I have had my little guy for 40 days now and he is not growing, and has actually lost a few grams. When I got him he was about 3 weeks old (I was told). He is from a reptile pet store and I have since contacted them to find out how he was started and they don't know because they purchased him from a breeder. He is at least 2 months old and still has his egg tooth, still has an umbilical scab, and weighs 21 grams. He eats great on a variety of dark leafy greens and moistened Zilla Land Tortoise Food. He loves eating and is pretty active throughout the day. I have his basking spot at just over 100 degrees, cool side in the shade is around 80, and humidity is always between 70-80%. I have him in a 20L Tank for now and keep damp paper towels covering the top of the tank to keep the humidity high. Full length Zilla 10.0 UVB lamp on 12 hours/day. I'm just so concerned that he isn't growing and that he is so small. He is such a cool tortoise and we love him so much and I just want to make sure to do everything right with him. I soak him for about 15-20 minutes/day and he likes that. Is it possible that he is just slow growing because of being started too dry? I am concerned about hatchling failure and just didn't know when I could consider him out of the danger zone and can start to relax. I included pictures of him, his set up, and his shell and belly. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I worry about him non-stop. Thank you everyone!!! His name is Darwin

 

[AreRaNa]

You are doing ok, you could work on a few things, here's a link

by Kamp Kenan. Its really informative. It too early to tell sex, girls grow slower, boys are usually grow bigger and faster. Don't worry so much about their weight, trust me they will grow, some grow quicker then others

 

[Fredkas]

Please read all the care sheet in the sulcata section, you will find a lot of usefull information.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

@Tom will have insight. I don't keep sulcata, but 21g sounds extremely light for a sulcata hatchling. The fact that he is eating and active is very positive. The fact that he is so light and losing weight is not a good sign. Wait for one of the sulcata breeders to chime in.

 

[Pearly]

Awww... Those little skinny legs... Don't despair. You say that this baby has good appetite, so you are ahead in a big way. I'd be curious to hear what @Yvonne G and @maggie3fan would suggest. Yvonne rescues torts with all kinds of ailments and Maggie is know for having a very special touch with the babies that do not thrive. They both keep sulcata. I've brought up 2 baby RF through their first year of life and one was like yours, very little, very skinny. This whole year it's been all about feedings. Try blending greens with Mazuri or whatever pellet food he likes. Maybe add tiny bit of cucumber for an appetizing scent. And do at least 2-3 feedings a day! Soak daily. Get him out of that tank for a daily excercise for 20-30 min outside to stretch his legs and get natural sunrays. Bathe after the walk, and feed after that. Don't underestimate the amt of food those babies eat. They can eat a lot comparing to the size of their little mouth. Having fresh greens in the enclosure at all times encourages natural grazing behaviors. Study Tom's care sheets, and check out sulcata threads in "species specific" and hopefully the 2 ladies I've tagged chime in soon with some words of advice

 

[Nicole M]

What a sweet little baby! I wish you the best!

 

[Yvonne G]

You are doing ok, you could work on a few things, here's a link

by Kamp Kenan. Its really informative. It too early to tell sex, girls grow slower, boys are usually grow bigger and faster. Don't worry so much about their weight, trust me they will grow, some grow quicker then others

I haven't watched that video all the way through, however, just seeing those babies in an open topped tub like that on dry substrate, gives me the idea that he hasn't moved into the 21st century. The new way of keeping baby sulcatas and leopards is to mimic the time of year they hatch in the wild - monsoon season. Please read our care sheets here on the Forum. You'll get a better understanding of how to care for baby sulcatas and leopards, and raise them smooth with no pyramiding.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hello. I have had my little guy for 40 days now and he is not growing, and has actually lost a few grams. When I got him he was about 3 weeks old (I was told). He is from a reptile pet store and I have since contacted them to find out how he was started and they don't know because they purchased him from a breeder. He is at least 2 months old and still has his egg tooth, still has an umbilical scab, and weighs 21 grams. He eats great on a variety of dark leafy greens and moistened Zilla Land Tortoise Food. He loves eating and is pretty active throughout the day. I have his basking spot at just over 100 degrees, cool side in the shade is around 80, and humidity is always between 70-80%. I have him in a 20L Tank for now and keep damp paper towels covering the top of the tank to keep the humidity high. Full length Zilla 10.0 UVB lamp on 12 hours/day. I'm just so concerned that he isn't growing and that he is so small. He is such a cool tortoise and we love him so much and I just want to make sure to do everything right with him. I soak him for about 15-20 minutes/day and he likes that. Is it possible that he is just slow growing because of being started too dry? I am concerned about hatchling failure and just didn't know when I could consider him out of the danger zone and can start to relax. I included pictures of him, his set up, and his shell and belly. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I worry about him non-stop. Thank you everyone!!! His name is Darwin View attachment 177115View attachment 177116 View attachment 177117View attachment 177118 View attachment 177119View attachment 177120

I notice that you have the wet paper towels sitting on a screen. Does this mean that your lights are also on top of the screen, or do you have holes cut out for them? The screen filters out quite a bit of the UVB rays. And without UVB, the calcium you feed the tortoise won't work. You say you are using a Zilla full length 10.0 UVB lamp. Is that one of those new compact fluorescent bulbs, or a long tube? Here's a good article on the compact fluorescent bulbs:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-tests.htm

 

[Tom]

You are doing ok, you could work on a few things, here's a link

by Kamp Kenan. Its really informative. It too early to tell sex, girls grow slower, boys are usually grow bigger and faster. Don't worry so much about their weight, trust me they will grow, some grow quicker then others

We've discussed this info here before. Some of what he says about adults is accurate of good info, but Kenan, while he means well, does not give good info for babies. There is a lot lacking in what he says in that video. Please take a minute to read these and learn about proper baby sulcata care, before offering advice that might create more problems than it solves.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Tom]

Hello. I have had my little guy for 40 days now and he is not growing, and has actually lost a few grams. When I got him he was about 3 weeks old (I was told). He is from a reptile pet store and I have since contacted them to find out how he was started and they don't know because they purchased him from a breeder. He is at least 2 months old and still has his egg tooth, still has an umbilical scab, and weighs 21 grams. He eats great on a variety of dark leafy greens and moistened Zilla Land Tortoise Food. He loves eating and is pretty active throughout the day. I have his basking spot at just over 100 degrees, cool side in the shade is around 80, and humidity is always between 70-80%. I have him in a 20L Tank for now and keep damp paper towels covering the top of the tank to keep the humidity high. Full length Zilla 10.0 UVB lamp on 12 hours/day. I'm just so concerned that he isn't growing and that he is so small. He is such a cool tortoise and we love him so much and I just want to make sure to do everything right with him. I soak him for about 15-20 minutes/day and he likes that. Is it possible that he is just slow growing because of being started too dry? I am concerned about hatchling failure and just didn't know when I could consider him out of the danger zone and can start to relax. I included pictures of him, his set up, and his shell and belly. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I worry about him non-stop. Thank you everyone!!! His name is Darwin

From your post, it sound like you are doing everything correctly. Unfortunately, if the baby has organ damage from early dehydration, it doesn't matter what you do. That initial damage cannot be undone by good care in your hands. My babies hatch at around 35 grams, so 21 grams at nearly 2 months old indicates a big problem. Mine are nearing 100 grams by that age. If your baby begins growing and passes 100 grams, I'd say you are out of the woods, so to speak. Most of the dry started babies that are not going to survive, stall at around 50 grams and don't grow after that.

Your baby should not have been sold this young and it sounds like it was started in the typical dry fashion. All you can do is continue offering good hydration, warm temps and the proper diet, and hope for the best. Some make it and some don't. Do your best to share this info with the pet store and try to reach the breeder. They all need to know that this is directly their fault. Print out the hatchling failure thread and the how to incubate and start babies thread and give it to them. They may disregard it, but you might just succeed in planting a seed.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

 

[Markw84]

Bryan, it is a very good sign that you sulcate is eating well. That gives you what you need to work with for what you can do. As long as your sulcate is eating, there is definitely hope things will go in the right direction. I think that once you can get your baby to 50g, you no longer have to worry about the dry start / hatchling failure, and are normally out of the woods there.

21g is extremely small for a sulcata. All mine weigh right around 30 - 35g as hatchlings. A dry start is very possible. Perhaps this is from a small, young female, and maybe a smaller egg out of the clutch. I sometimes see a smaller egg that does hatch out of a clutch from a younger female.

The biggest thing you can do now is give it the best care possible as described in the threads at the top of this sulcata section. You need to convince your little gut that it is the monsoon season. That is when sulcatas in the wild are active, grow and thrive. Not sure where you are living, but here in California, I could not keep the 80% humidity needed in the enclosure as you have it. A few suggestions, (but please read Tom's threads!)

Try to get the little guy some natural sunlight for about 1-2 hours at least 3 times a week. Be sure to set up a proper outside enclosure, with shade, and protection, Etc. It really seems to stimulate good growth with stubborn growers in my experience.

Work towards getting a bigger enclosure.

Looks like you have a screen top. You need to seal in heat an humidity best you can. Cover it with plastic, wood, aluminum foil, anything for now, leaving holes for the lights. Any UVB source is reduced by over 50% when going through a screen top. Also using a Zilla 10 UVB lamp, normally you would need to be about 10 - 12" above the tortoise to get the necessary strength of UVB needed. So your light is too high and going through a screen, so the tortoise is getting virtually no UVB.

Put a flat rock, paver, or piece of slate under the basking light for a basking spot.

Provide a humid hide as suggested in the care threads Tom references. Solid, dark, and enclosed except the entrance. That will also help a lot. If he doesn't use it at first, just put him in every night after lights go out, and he will start to see it as his burrow.

Looks like you could wet the substrate more. I pour water in to keep it moist. I really like the orchid bark as the top dries out a bit, but the rest retains great moisture.

I personally prefer the commercial foods I can see the ingredients and are designed more specifically for grassland tortoises. The Zilla is more generic and tries to cover all tortoises and land turtles so contains more of the fruits, etc. I love the Mazuri regular, and the Rep Cal tortoise. I feel those are like a one a day multi vitamin I can give to my babies to ensure they are getting the calcium, D3, and minerals they need as they get started. That, wet, and mashed up mixed together with finely chopped greens and grass, is what I use to try to get good growth going. Almost like a small meatball! Be sure about 2/3 of it is the greens. Include as much of the best as possible from Tom's list of weeds. I will typically have grape leaves, plantain, dandelion, sow thistle, hibiscus, grass, and the greenest part of the very outer leaves of romaine. I chop it all up and mash it together with the Mazuri and Rep Cal.

Start with these suggestions and study Tom's guides. Let us know how things progress. Again, as long as your guy is eating well, you have a great chance of getting him to start adding size quickly.

 

[Speedy-1]

If he is eating and active , these are definite plus's ! You might even want to consider vitamin / baby food soaks ? You can read about it here ! http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/vitamin-soaks-baby-food-soaks-for-ailing-tortoises.19344/ Good luck with the little guy , keep us posted !

 

[BrianWI]

First, for comparison, my small 4 week old sulcata is 43 grams. I got her at 2 weeks old.

Now, I am new to sulcatas, but raised chacos as a kid and have experience in RF's and box turtles. I will put this out there for discussion (don't beat me up too bad):

Sometimes you don't feed a sick baby like a healthy one. Sulcata are usually on a low protein diet. However, maybe he should consider some clover or other legumes to help this baby gain weight.

 

[Pearly]

Hey Bryan, How's is your baby sully doing?

 

[Tony Watson]

I haven't watched that video all the way through, however, just seeing those babies in an open topped tub like that on dry substrate, gives me the idea that he hasn't moved into the 21st century. The new way of keeping baby sulcatas and leopards is to mimic the time of year they hatch in the wild - monsoon season. Please read our care sheets here on the Forum. You'll get a better understanding of how to care for baby sulcatas and leopards, and raise them smooth with no pyramiding.

This video was great! I learned quite a bit and can definitely improve a little bit of my keeping using some of the pointers given. I tend to be a visual learner so videos like this one are fantastic learning tools for me. I can't wait till my little Sulcata is large and wondering around an outdoor enclosure in the summer.

 

[Speedy-1]

This video was great! I learned quite a bit and can definitely improve a little bit of my keeping using some of the pointers given. I tend to be a visual learner so videos like this one are fantastic learning tools for me. I can't wait till my little Sulcata is large and wondering around an outdoor enclosure in the summer.

Tony , it was an interesting video but somewhere especially in the "raising hatchlings" area he needs to put some sort of disclaimer that reads (for entertainment purposes only) ! Many of us have seen and discussed the shortcomings of this video before. I feel that if you raise your hatchling by his less than ideal standards you are sure to be disappointed !

 

[Edizzle888]

Like they said... If grows past 50ish you'll be fine.
I have 2
Rocky 200 grams (was small like yours) still small but healthy

Apollo 800 grams (piggy)

Same clutch-14 months old

 

[tryven]

My Cecil is 2 years and is only 319 grams.

 

[Fredkas]

How is darwin doing?
Mine around 4 months and still 62g.

 

[Gillian M]

@Tom will have insight. I don't keep sulcata, but 21g sounds extremely light for a sulcata hatchling. The fact that he is eating and active is very positive. The fact that he is so light and losing weight is not a good sign. Wait for one of the sulcata breeders to chime in.

Hi. Do you have any idea how much such a tort should weigh?