Tempi passed away :(

[Tom]

Very sorry Terra. I was hoping she'd pull through. When ever somethings bad happens, I try to make something good out of it. Sometimes the only good thing is to find out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. Would it be okay with you to ask a few questions at this point?

 

[terracolson]

Very sorry Terra. I was hoping she'd pull through. When ever somethings bad happens, I try to make something good out of it. Sometimes the only good thing is to find out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. Would it be okay with you to ask a few questions at this point?

Yes Tom you can ask questions. I knew it was coming, i was prepared.

 

[ChiKat]

Ohh no, I'm so sorry to hear this

 

[moswen]

oh how very sad, i'm so sorry for your loss. i know you're such a good mommy terra, i'm sorry! that also makes me scared, my little ayana hasn't grown yet...

 

[Sweetness_bug]

i am very sorry for your loss

 

[terracolson]

Here is what i was told. ( I almost believe and must with out a animal autopsy, what ever their called )

"Many times, the turtle and tortoise hatchlings 'fail to thrive'. It's Mother Nature, not the caretaker. Their intestines do not mature or something and they can't digest their food and they die. This is why we never register the desert tortoise hatchlings until they are 4 years or 4 inches because up until that point, you never know if they are going to make it. "

 

[Cherbear]

I can see that. Like you, I'm not giving up hope, but mentally trying to prepare myself. I don't think I'll ever buy a hatchling again. It's too stressful.

 

[Seiryu]

I can see that. Like you, I'm not giving up hope, but mentally trying to prepare myself. I don't think I'll ever buy a hatchling again. It's too stressful.

May I ask, Cherbear did you get your leopards from the same person that Terra got Tempi from? and that's why you are worried too?

 

[Balboa]

SOOO Sorry, that part of nature seems so unfair.

 

[terracolson]

I can see that. Like you, I'm not giving up hope, but mentally trying to prepare myself. I don't think I'll ever buy a hatchling again. It's too stressful.

May I ask, Cherbear did you get your leopards from the same person that Terra got Tempi from? and that's why you are worried too?

No Cherbear didnt... The breeder I used has had hundreds of successful babies and this little is just now a year old and i have had him/her all of 2010.

I dont blame the breeder. She had him for only 3 months, i am not sure what you can do in 3 months that will damage a tort and cause it to pass 9 months later

 

[Cherbear]

Yeah, I bought mine at a reptile show in Columbus, Ohio. I also bought my adult herman's from the same breeder and they've been great. I just felt concerned because I could relate to the lack of growth, etc...

 

[terracolson]

THx for the concern i would have PM'ed u but it seems i cant for some reason. I worried about these babies from the day i got them! It doesnt stop!

 

[Tom]

I can see that. Like you, I'm not giving up hope, but mentally trying to prepare myself. I don't think I'll ever buy a hatchling again. It's too stressful.

May I ask, Cherbear did you get your leopards from the same person that Terra got Tempi from? and that's why you are worried too?

No Cherbear didnt... The breeder I used has had hundreds of successful babies and this little is just now a year old and i have had him/her all of 2010.

I dont blame the breeder. She had him for only 3 months, i am not sure what you can do in 3 months that will damage a tort and cause it to pass 9 months later

Terra, I'd forgotten that you haven't been here as much lately. We had a thread lately discussing this very thing. I'll paraphrase and condense several conversations into the gist of the thing.

Tiny little hatchlings contain very little water and under the typical hot, dry lights and dry substrate they can dehydrate VERY quickly, even overnight. We all know to keep our babies warm at night, which is good, but warmer and dry also means even faster dehydration. Now most breeders keep their hatchlings on dry pellets (either rabbit or compressed grass) with no water bowl (it would mess up the pellets) and they hardly ever soak them because, no joke here, "its too much work." So for those first few critical weeks, before we even get them, most babies are fighting chronic dehydration. Sometimes it gets so bad that it permanently damages their internal organs, like their kidneys and liver. Now how dehydrated they get or just how badly damaged their organs get is immeasurable. But they don't die from it right away. They typically have enough liver or kidney cells still functioning to keep them alive for a while, but not enough to thrive and grow. Eventually, because their internal organs are not functioning properly, the toxins build up in their blood stream and they start to shut down and actually show signs of sickness, quickly followed by death. Depending on how bad the dehydration and organ damage is, this process can take days or months. So even though a keeper, like you, is giving them perfect care, the damage is already done and there is no way to know it. Danny is the one who pointed this out to us and he was citing this organ damage as a possible cause of pyramiding. No one knows any of this for sure and we might never know, but this is the most logical explanation I've heard about why so many hatchlings seem to be doing fine for weeks or months and then just slowly get sick and die.

Certainly some of them might have congenital defects. It is that way for every other species on the planet. It just seems that too many have this same congenital defect and they don't seem to have it if they are raised with humidity (which helps slow the dehydration process) and daily soaks (which, of course, RE-hydrate the little torty).

So my questions to you are: Do you know how the breeder or seller kept them during those first few critical weeks BEFORE you got them? Were they on dry pellets under a hot lamp? Did they get soaked? Did they have a humid hide box?

In the last few months I've come to realize that the breeders and sellers out there are really the primary cause of this problem and not the people who bring them home. There are certainly exceptions on both sides, but most breeders I've asked in the last few months keep most species bone dry for those first few weeks after hatching. Sulcatas and Leopards being almost unanimously kept dry. The Fife's are a notable exception to this and deserve a favorable mention here for all they've done to end this problem. The typical pet store should get some credit here too (bad credit) for the ridiculous "tortoises get their water from their food" line.

I've been trying to get people to ask their breeders how the hatchlings are kept from hatch day until sale day and NOT buy from the ones that are still using the "dry" methods. Breeders have been the most resistant group I've encountered while trying the get the word out on this new info. After all, they've been keeping torts for a long time and this is how they've always done it. When you point out that the way they've been doing "it" produces high mortality and pyramiding they usually scoff and get annoyed. However, if they keep hearing the same questions and THEIR CUSTOMERS tell them they won't buy from someone who houses them that way, then they will either listen and change or go broke.

I always worry that I haven't been thorough enough in an explanation so please question anything you like. And anyone else (Danny) should feel free to clarify or add to this too.

 

[terracolson]

Tom, you are the best, you know.

Well The breeder did keep them on peat moss. and Tempi WAS ALWAYS (with me) in the water bowl. She would lay in in all day if i let her. This summer i did keep them out side a lot, i always had water for them, it never got over 100. and if it did they had ton of shade and i watered there area alot.
Tempi was a bit lumpy when i got her, i should not have got her, thinking back now, but she was so active!

So my questions to you are:

Do you know how the breeder or seller kept them during those first few critical weeks BEFORE you got them? She was born the week the breeder was out of town and i think got to dry. Just a thought

Were they on dry pellets under a hot lamp? peat moss and lamp, but with a good 30 others and a few redfoots were mixed in the mix

Did they get soaked? Cant answer that one

Did they have a humid hide box? a box but not a "fife" recommended one


poor baby

 

[Tom]

Thanks Terra.

 

[ElfDa]

aw, sweetie, i'm so sorry.
That happened to me with my greek, some years ago.
[offers internet hugs]

 

[Tracy Gould]

i am so sorry to hear about ur tort

 

[moswen]

i have something that might be of note, tempi was parasite free, and so is my little ayana. ayana was kept pretty dry, just like safina and moswen, but they are growing. safina and moswen have a small amount of parasites, but the vet said not very much, so i chose not to deworm them. ayana has none. there has been some speculation that worms help torts digest their food, do you think it's possible that a small enough animal that is dewormed may not be able to properly digest food? or perhaps when we worm our torts, a small amount of parasites stay in some torts, too small to be noticed in one random fecal sample, making them "parasite free" while really they have a small amount. while other torts really do get completely dewormed, with no parasites whatsoever, and that's why their digestion is such a problem?

if tempi spent a lot of time in her water bowl, i believe hatchling failure syndrome may be the case like what tom said. that is one very common sign of dehydration, and she does have a little pyramiding. but does anyone else think that completely killing off every parasite a tort carries is really healthy? after all, all torts have them in the wild.

an over-infestation of parasites really does need to be treated in my opinion, but just a little bit i believe is good for their intestines. perhaps when a brand new baby tort is treated for parasites, they do not get something beneficial that the parasites give to a tort's intestines.

any thoughts?

 

[Neal]

i have something that might be of note, tempi was parasite free, and so is my little ayana. ayana was kept pretty dry, just like safina and moswen, but they are growing. safina and moswen have a small amount of parasites, but the vet said not very much, so i chose not to deworm them. ayana has none. there has been some speculation that worms help torts digest their food, do you think it's possible that a small enough animal that is dewormed may not be able to properly digest food? or perhaps when we worm our torts, a small amount of parasites stay in some torts, too small to be noticed in one random fecal sample, making them "parasite free" while really they have a small amount. while other torts really do get completely dewormed, with no parasites whatsoever, and that's why their digestion is such a problem?

if tempi spent a lot of time in her water bowl, i believe hatchling failure syndrome may be the case like what tom said. that is one very common sign of dehydration, and she does have a little pyramiding. but does anyone else think that completely killing off every parasite a tort carries is really healthy? after all, all torts have them in the wild.

an over-infestation of parasites really does need to be treated in my opinion, but just a little bit i believe is good for their intestines. perhaps when a brand new baby tort is treated for parasites, they do not get something beneficial that the parasites give to a tort's intestines.

any thoughts?

Interesting post, my vet also says that some parasites are beleived to be good for a tortoise. I'd like to hear what other people have to say.

 

[terracolson]

I do agree with some being good. Just like our bodies and good and bad bacteria