Talk to me about leopards

[Megatron's Mom]

Ok so I lost my poor Megatron. I'm heart broken but I still want to go down this road again.

Vet suspected hatchling failure even though she was past the normal weight for that. 🤷‍♀️ Symptoms matched, she had no pneumonia and no blockages.

So now that I know what not to do and I have a better set up then when I first started. I have more questions.

Magatron was a high white leopard tortoise, I want to stick to the looks of this again the next time around. What I'm finding is sort of confusing.

I've seen the terms PB PP and giant leopard tortoise. I see one spot per scute, two spots and no spots.
I would like the two spots per scute again. What would this one be called? I want to take my time finding the right breeder and one done right.
I have been browsing morphmaket and see so many with already pyramiding and only 2 inch long. This much I know should not be what I go after.

I know I'm far from knowing all the terms, but I want to do it right from the start this time and not have another heart break.
Any tips and help to solve the labeling names, terms and where to search for a good breeder.

 

[wellington]

@Tom can answer this the best

 

[Tom]

Ok so I lost my poor Megatron. I'm heart broken but I still want to go down this road again.

Vet suspected hatchling failure even though she was past the normal weight for that. 🤷‍♀️ Symptoms matched, she had no pneumonia and no blockages.

So now that I know what not to do and I have a better set up then when I first started. I have more questions.

Magatron was a high white leopard tortoise, I want to stick to the looks of this again the next time around. What I'm finding is sort of confusing.

I've seen the terms PB PP and giant leopard tortoise. I see one spot per scute, two spots and no spots.
I would like the two spots per scute again. What would this one be called? I want to take my time finding the right breeder and one done right.
I have been browsing morphmaket and see so many with already pyramiding and only 2 inch long. This much I know should not be what I go after.

I know I'm far from knowing all the terms, but I want to do it right from the start this time and not have another heart break.
Any tips and help to solve the labeling names, terms and where to search for a good breeder.

Okay... I think we need to sticky this somewhere. I feel like I've typed it up 100 times.

Past leopard tortoise taxonomy: There used to be two subspecies. Geochelone pardalis pardalis (the South African type) and Geochelone pardalis babcocki. Scientists came along and changed this to...

Current leopard tortoise taxonomy: There is only one species, Stigmochelys pardalis, and no subspecies. Stigmochelys pardalis has an enormous range covering a large percentage of the African continent from Ethiopia and Somalia in the north all the way down to the southern tip of the cape in South Africa. Within this range they have decided that there are 11 morphologically distinct "clades". 6 of those clades are in South Africa.

Here in the U.S.A.: We started importing leopard tortoises from all over the range back in the 1960s. This continued until it was banned in 1998 due to fears regarding a tick that can carry heart water disease. For all of those years almost everyone put leopards with other leopards for housing and breeding with no regard to what locality they came from, a practice that sadly continues to this day. One man, who wishes to remain anonymous, bought 10 fresh imports directly from South Africa, (Durban region), in 1990, and kept them all separate from all other leopard tortoises and bred them only to each other. This is the type that used to be called Gpp. I now refer to them as "South African Leopards". I got mine directly from this breeder. All other leopards in this country are now a hodge podge of mixed genetics from all over Africa, including the South African type. There is nothing wrong with these tortoises. They are leopard tortoises and they are a fantastic species, but you never really know what you are going to get.

So for practical purposes, here in the USA, you can buy "regular" leopard tortoises, or true "South African" leopard tortoises. I don't buy into the color morphs. "Sunset hypo" and such. Some leopards are lighter in color than others.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

Okay... I think we need to sticky this somewhere. I feel like I've typed it up 100 times.

Past leopard tortoise taxonomy: There used to be two subspecies. Geochelone pardalis pardalis (the South African type) and Geochelone pardalis babcocki. Scientists came along and changed this to...

Current leopard tortoise taxonomy: There is only one species, Stigmochelys pardalis, and no subspecies. Stigmochelys pardalis has an enormous range covering a large percentage of the African continent from Ethiopia and Somalia in the north all the way down to the southern tip of the cape in South Africa. Within this range they have decided that there are 11 morphologically distinct "clades". 6 of those clades are in South Africa.

Here in the U.S.A.: We started importing leopard tortoises from all over the range back in the 1960s. This continued until it was banned in 1998 due to fears regarding a tick that can carry heart water disease. For all of those years almost everyone put leopards with other leopards for housing and breeding with no regard to what locality they came from, a practice that sadly continues to this day. One man, who wishes to remain anonymous, bought 10 fresh imports directly from South Africa, (Durban region), in 1990, and kept them all separate from all other leopard tortoises and bred them only to each other. This is the type that used to be called Gpp. I now refer to them as "South African Leopards". I got mine directly from this breeder. All other leopards in this country are now a hodge podge of mixed genetics from all over Africa, including the South African type. There is nothing wrong with these tortoises. They are leopard tortoises and they are a fantastic species, but you never really know what you are going to get.

So for practical purposes, here in the USA, you can buy "regular" leopard tortoises, or true "South African" leopard tortoises. I don't buy into the color morphs. "Sunset hypo" and such. Some leopards are lighter in color than others.

Thank you, so it would be pretty much just find what I'm looking for and I should be good. I don't have to worry about the so called Giant Leapard tortoise then? I just really like the way the two dots look, but if that really doesn't mean much either that is good to know too.

How would one know the difference between the regulars and true South African?

 

[Blackdog1714]

my hybrid he is 3 years old now and a confirmed (Can'tunseethat!) male

 

[Ink]

Hopefully you can find exactly what you are looking for, post a picture before you purchase,if you want. I would wait until the weather is better. My opinion only. I can't wait to see your new tortoise. So exciting for you

 

[Tom]

Thank you, so it would be pretty much just find what I'm looking for and I should be good. I don't have to worry about the so called Giant Leapard tortoise then? I just really like the way the two dots look, but if that really doesn't mean much either that is good to know too.

How would one know the difference between the regulars and true South African?

The South African types grow larger than some of the other types, and are often referred to as "Giant Leopard Tortoises". The Ethiopian and Somalian types get even bigger than the South African types, but we don't have either of those available in the US due to the import ban.

How to tell the difference: South Africans grow larger and are more elongated with a lower dome than "regular" leopards. They are also much more outgoing in personality and they eat grass like a sulcata, where "regular" leopards usually aren't that into eating grass. The two dots per vertebral scute that you speak of are a typical characteristic of the SA type, along with yellow skin and lots of freckles on the skin. I used to have a picture of the two types as hatchlings side by side, but I can't find it. Once you've seen enough of each type, it is obvious. Where it gets difficult is when you see the individuals with mixed genetics. They often grow larger, have the dots, and tend to be more outgoing. There is nothing "wrong" with these mixes. They are awesome and tend to be great healthy tortoises. Just don't let someone fool you into paying more for a mutt.

If you want a healthy well started regular leopard, contact @Gijoux or @Kapidolo Farms . If you want a healthy well started South African, contact @Rodriguez Chelonians

 

[Megatron's Mom]

The South African types grow larger than some of the other types, and are often referred to as "Giant Leopard Tortoises". The Ethiopian and Somalian types get even bigger than the South African types, but we don't have either of those available in the US due to the import ban.

How to tell the difference: South Africans grow larger and are more elongated with a lower dome than "regular" leopards. They are also much more outgoing in personality and they eat grass like a sulcata, where "regular" leopards usually aren't that into eating grass. The two dots per vertebral scute that you speak of are a typical characteristic of the SA type, along with yellow skin and lots of freckles on the skin. I used to have a picture of the two types as hatchlings side by side, but I can't find it. Once you've seen enough of each type, it is obvious. Where it gets difficult is when you see the individuals with mixed genetics. They often grow larger, have the dots, and tend to be more outgoing. There is nothing "wrong" with these mixes. They are awesome and tend to be great healthy tortoises. Just don't let someone fool you into paying more for a mutt.

If you want a healthy well started regular leopard, contact @Gijoux or @Kapidolo Farms . If you want a healthy well started South African, contact @Rodriguez Chelonians

Thank you so much. This helps a lot.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

Hopefully you can find exactly what you are looking for, post a picture before you purchase,if you want. I would wait until the weather is better. My opinion only. I can't wait to see your new tortoise. So exciting for you

I'm going to take my time to get what I want. I'm excited to know better this time around and will do a better job looking.

 

[Tom]

I'm going to take my time to get what I want. I'm excited to know better this time around and will do a better job looking.

Here are the important questions to ask of a breeder:
1. Does the baby spend about a week in a brooder box set up after hatching?
2. Is the hatchling soaked daily?
3. Is the hatchling housed indoors in a warm humid closed chamber on damp substrate?
4. Has the hatchling been introduced to a huge variety of weeds, leaves, flowers and other greens?

 

[Megatron's Mom]

Here are the important questions to ask of a breeder:
1. Does the baby spend about a week in a brooder box set up after hatching?
2. Is the hatchling soaked daily?
3. Is the hatchling housed indoors in a warm humid closed chamber on damp substrate?
4. Has the hatchling been introduced to a huge variety of weeds, leaves, flowers and other greens?

Tom thank you so much for all you do here. I have learned so much. I wish you lived closer to me I would love to get one of your babies.

 

[Tom]

Tom thank you so much for all you do here. I have learned so much. I wish you lived closer to me I would love to get one of your babies.

You are welcome.

I doubt you will find anyone near you that starts babies correctly. Almost nobody does. One way or another, you will need to ship. If you want a South African, I have some babies that will be ready to go in about 6 weeks, and the weather should be better by then too.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

You are welcome.

I doubt you will find anyone near you that starts babies correctly. Almost nobody does. One way or another, you will need to ship. If you want a South African, I have some babies that will be ready to go in about 6 weeks, and the weather should be better by then too.

Oh wow that would be great. Message me with info please.