Sulcata pyramiding, what can people recommend?

[mrblue2008]

hello all,

am not sure how many of you have seen the pictures of my 2 new baby sulcatas on my other post, but i have noticed from the pictures that the shells are just starting to pyramid.

these guys are only 4-5 months so still very young, what can anyone recommend to stop this action taking place? do my torts look healthy?

any info is welcome, cheers

 

[dmward1978]

Mist them daily till they drip and provide a humid hide.

 

[egyptiandan]

I don't think misting Sulcatas till they drip is a good idea. That can cause shell rot in a Sulcata.

That advice is just fine for Redfoots and Yellowfoots, but not Sulcatas

Danny

 

[Tom]

Danny, Interesting that you said this. Since this is an open forum, I wish to respectfully disagree with you. As you know, I've been looking in to this very heavily for many years and my pace and learning curve has quickened tenfold with my discovery of TFO and its members. I've been PMing and calling members, breeders recommended by members and people with lots of tortoise experience from around the world. I also draw upon my own experience.

Here's one of the things I've recently discovered: You can't keep a sulcata too wet/humid/damp. They seem to be much more resistant to shell rot than the red/yellowfoots. One of our prominent redfoot breeders here on the forum speculates that, because sulcatas live in burrows so much of the time where they urinate and defecate and then lay in their own waste, that they have a much higher resistance to shell rot. Whereas the red/yellowfoots tend to stay above ground in the more open air. This is an interesting theory and in my travels and experience it seems to be accurate. I've never seen or heard of a sulcata with shell rot. Granted, most people keep them very dry, but I've been keeping mine in an environment that would probably make a RES happy. For almost a year now, I've been keeping Daisy on wet, not damp, but dripping wet, substrate. She has a humid hide box filled with wet moss. Her and her enclosure get sprayed at least twice, but sometimes 10-12 times a day. If I'm around all day, I just try to keep her shell wet all day. Room humidity is 50-60%, but if you put the probe anywhere in her pen its in the 90's all the time and all of her hides are at 100% all the time. I know of others who have shared this same experience. I fully respect your tortoise knowledge and experience and will almost always defer to you, but this is one of those rare instances where my experience suggests differently.

To Mr. Blue: As you can see from the above and the copious quantity of debatable threads on this subject, this subject is highly debatable and controversial. There is a lot of conjecture, theory, opinion, anecdotal experience(like mine, above), but not a lot of fact or fact proving, scientific research. Having said that, here are somethings that I have learned and wholeheartedly believe. Some of these things may eventually prove to be true or false, but this is what I know as of now. I'll number the points, so they can be agreed or disagreed with individually.

1. The pattern for shell growth (either pyramided or not) is established very early on. I think the first few days or weeks after hatching.
2. It is very difficult, if not impossible to stop pyramiding once it starts. You can keep it from escalating, but it will continue at its current rate in most cases, until they get big and it starts to smooth out on its own. I don't know if you can take a smooth baby and then make it start to pyramid. I'm told that if you can get them to 4-6" smooth, nothing you do can make them start to pyramid. I have not, and will not, be testing the latter. At least not on purpose.
3. Pyramiding can be prevented by the following: Keep humidity high. Soak daily. Keep a damp substrate. Spray the shell with water frequently. Spray the food with water just before they eat it. Use a humid hide box or two in their enclosure. Other elements of husbandry such as, temps, thermal gradient, diet, calcium supplementation, sunshine/UV and hydration are all important too, but from my research, it seems humidity and hydration (internal and external) play the biggest part in preventing pyramiding.
4. If all other aspects of their care and environment are good, then pyramiding is only cosmetic.


Here is a study done in Austria to back up what I'm telling you:
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

Here's a tidbit from the website of a prominent, highly regarded Sulcata and Leopard tortoise breeder:
http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

 

[mrblue2008]

Danny, Interesting that you said this. Since this is an open forum, I wish to respectfully disagree with you. As you know, I've been looking in to this very heavily for many years and my pace and learning curve has quickened tenfold with my discovery of TFO and its members. I've been PMing and calling members, breeders recommended by members and people with lots of tortoise experience from around the world. I also draw upon my own experience.

Here's one of the things I've recently discovered: You can't keep a sulcata too wet/humid/damp. They seem to be much more resistant to shell rot than the red/yellowfoots. One of our prominent redfoot breeders here on the forum speculates that, because sulcatas live in burrows so much of the time where they urinate and defecate and then lay in their own waste, that they have a much higher resistance to shell rot. Whereas the red/yellowfoots tend to stay above ground in the more open air. This is an interesting theory and in my travels and experience it seems to be accurate. I've never seen or heard of a sulcata with shell rot. Granted, most people keep them very dry, but I've been keeping mine in an environment that would probably make a RES happy. For almost a year now, I've been keeping Daisy on wet, not damp, but dripping wet, substrate. She has a humid hide box filled with wet moss. Her and her enclosure get sprayed at least twice, but sometimes 10-12 times a day. If I'm around all day, I just try to keep her shell wet all day. Room humidity is 50-60%, but if you put the probe anywhere in her pen its in the 90's all the time and all of her hides are at 100% all the time. I know of others who have shared this same experience. I fully respect your tortoise knowledge and experience and will almost always defer to you, but this is one of those rare instances where my experience suggests differently.

To Mr. Blue: As you can see from the above and the copious quantity of debatable threads on this subject, this subject is highly debatable and controversial. There is a lot of conjecture, theory, opinion, anecdotal experience(like mine, above), but not a lot of fact or fact proving, scientific research. Having said that, here are somethings that I have learned and wholeheartedly believe. Some of these things may eventually prove to be true or false, but this is what I know as of now. I'll number the points, so they can be agreed or disagreed with individually.

1. The pattern for shell growth (either pyramided or not) is established very early on. I think the first few days or weeks after hatching.
2. It is very difficult, if not impossible to stop pyramiding once it starts. You can keep it from escalating, but it will continue at its current rate in most cases, until they get big and it starts to smooth out on its own. I don't know if you can take a smooth baby and then make it start to pyramid. I'm told that if you can get them to 4-6" smooth, nothing you do can make them start to pyramid. I have not, and will not, be testing the latter. At least not on purpose.
3. Pyramiding can be prevented by the following: Keep humidity high. Soak daily. Keep a damp substrate. Spray the shell with water frequently. Spray the food with water just before they eat it. Use a humid hide box or two in their enclosure. Other elements of husbandry such as, temps, thermal gradient, diet, calcium supplementation, sunshine/UV and hydration are all important too, but from my research, it seems humidity and hydration (internal and external) play the biggest part in preventing pyramiding.
4. If all other aspects of their care and environment are good, then pyramiding is only cosmetic.


Here is a study done in Austria to back up what I'm telling you:
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

Here's a tidbit from the website of a prominent, highly regarded Sulcata and Leopard tortoise breeder:
http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

Wow this is tons of info, thank you so much.

it really does seem to be a problem, mine have already started to pyramid but i will do my very best to follow these instructions & try to curve the growing pattern, its doesnt bother me as long as i keep them healthy.
you just get a bit worried when you see some horrific pictures on the net of very badly shapes torts, its such a shame & do upset me.

i have actually got a plastic pen for them which is half covered so it will be good to keep the humidity high.

thanks again
Mark

 

[Tom]

It should be noted that where I live it is very dry year round. Humidity is usually in the single digits. If its wetter where you are you shouldn't need to go to such extremes. That is what I'm doing with Daisy, testing the extremes. I'm not advocating that everyone keep their tortoise that wet all the time, I'm using her as an example of how they are not prone to shell rot or respiratory problems even in EXTREME circumstances. Richard Fife recommends a relatively dry set-up, but with a humid hide box for hatchling's. Since yours (Mr. Blue) are older and already pyramiding (only a little) I'd go a bit more humid and definitely use a humid hide box.