Odd shell growth on red foot tortoise

[Emiliar33]

Two years ago, we adopted an adult red foot tortoise. When we got her, she had significant pyramiding, but since we got her, the growth between her scutes has been really rough looking, with some imperfections. She is currently 8 years old (we think), she is 13inches long, and weighs 14-15 pounds. She eats and drinks well, and has recently been given a clean bill of health by her vet.
I feel like we are doing as much as we can to meet her needs, but the rough and wobbly texture of her shell growth tells me that I am missing something. Has anyone ever seen this? The vet seemed to think it was stuck keratin, and that I should be gently scrubbing her shell when she gets her soaks, but it doesn’t seem to be helping.

Living parameters are as follows:

- 6’x8’ enclosure.
- humidity kept at 70-75% with humidifiers and moist substrate.
- ambient temps between 80-90 degrees. She does have one warm corner that sits around 95 and one cool corner that sits around 75.
- substrate is coconut coir mixed with soil
- she has a 4ft long t5 uvb lamp, three heat lamps, a ceramic heat emitter (on a thermostat), and a space heater in the room (also on a thermostat) to keep her comfy.
- for diet, we give her a variety of greens with some veggies and fruits. She is also free fed Mazuri tortoise diet. We supplement her food with calcium/multi vitamins a 2-3 times a week.
- She gets soaks almost daily for 15-20 minutes.

We live in Canada, so this description is for her indoor/winter home. During the summer, we have an outside enclosure for her that is larger, and that we are able to keep within similar parameters, however, she always spends the night in her indoor enclosure.

I have attached some photos of her shell and enclosure set up. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Yvonne G]

it MIGHT be that the light/heat are too close to the shell and are burning the new growth?????

Filtered light is better than open light for RF tortoises (more plants).

You can try using a Q-tip to paint the new growth seams with cold pressed coconut oil. Rub it in, allow a few minutes to absorb, then polish it off with a clean, absorbent cloth. This won't change the existing seam, but will help new growth.

 

[Emiliar33]

Thank you Yvonne.

Now that you mention it, I am wondering if her ceramic heat emitter is too close. She likes to sleep under it, and even though its on a thermostat, I have temp gunned her shell at 97 degrees at times. I'm going to reduce the wattage of the ceramic heat emitter and pull it back a couple inches. Hopefully that will prevent her from getting too hot.

More plants will be nice for her too!

I also like the coconut oil idea. I will try that as well.

Thank you.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

If she sleeps under CHE this could be too drying (direct heat and humidity in the warm spot). If I get it right, the CHE is pointed at the corner and is about 5-7 inches over shell top level - that's too low.

Maybe it makes sense to make a cover over the enclosure. This will help to raise humidity up to 80-85%, which is a more comfortable for redfoots and to mount heat lamps and CHE higher to even out temperatures.

I must admit you've done a great job on setting up the enclosure and other aspects of keeping. And temp/humidity are suprisingly good for open top setup.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I also think it's being dried by a light too close...

 

[Emiliar33]

Her ceramic heat emitter is 9-10 inches from the top of her shell, but yes, this is probably making her too hot and too dry. Now that I think about it, the majority of the weird shell growth is around the area where the ceramic heat emitter is closest to the shell, so this is probably the problem.

I would absolutely love to give her an enclosed chamber. The problem is her enclosure is so big that we have to physically walk through it on a daily basis to pick up any poops or scattered food and water down the enclosure. That is why we made the decision to heat and humidify the whole room. For the most part, this has worked out, but I would love to increase the humidity. I wonder if I piped a humidifier directly into that one corner if that would help with the dryness?

We will be reconfiguring the ceramic heat emitter today so its not so close or intense. What is a comfortable nighttime shell temperature that I should be aiming for?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

With an open topped enclosure, you'll never get what you truly need. And that's an AMBIENT temperature. Not the temperature of the shell carapace. But the temperature inside of the enclosure.
(And that should be from 80 to 90°. With 82-84° as the target)
Redfoot need a closed chamber enclosure.

 

[Emiliar33]

Ok, I’ll try to aim for 82-84. I get what you’re saying about creating a more ambient temperature with an enclosed chamber.
Just from your experience, how can this be achieved with an adult Redfoot that needs a large enclosure? Like how would you get in to clean it? I’m open to ideas.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Ok, I’ll try to aim for 82-84. I get what you’re saying about creating a more ambient temperature with an enclosed chamber.
Just from your experience, how can this be achieved with an adult Redfoot that needs a large enclosure? Like how would you get in to clean it? I’m open to ideas.

OK.
You asked me and I need to be honest with you....
I don't know (firsthand.)
I live in tropical south Florida and my RF live outside 24/7. I have only had freshly hatched babies kept indoors and I used various aquariums with plexiglass lids. I've also kept a few critically ill ones.
I do have several decades of experience keeping Redfoot. But almost none in keeping them indoors for long periods of time.
Most keepers utilize something like a greenhouse. Or an actual greenhouse. Like @Maggie3fan
I'm in awe of some of the ways that some of y'all achieve the parameters needed for a Redfoot artificially. Most of my suggestions about this I'm repeating from other members who have been successful.
An adult Redfoot would be very cramped in a 6 foot square. Even a 10 foot square. So just go as large as you can and tweak things until you get to what works for your situation.
One size (or method) doesn't work for all, and it'll take a lot of fiddling

 

[Emiliar33]

Zeropilot,
I am envious of your tortoises. I wish my tortoise could come to Florida and spend time with you. Honestly, I get so frustrated that large tropical tortoises are subjected to living in Canada and forced to live indoors for at least part of the year. It is not ideal.
But that being said, I want to do everything in my power to give her what she needs and help her flourish. A greenhouse would be great, but the winters here are much too cold to keep them outside. This is why we opted to basically give her a room in our house, heat it and humidity it to her needs, and give her as much outside time in the summer as we can.
I have been given a lot of ideas from the people posting on this thread. My husband and I have been brainstorming on how we can create a plexiglass roof that can hinge open when we need to get into the enclosure. I’m sure we will come up with something. And I am confident that I can remedy the overheating/drying effect of her ceramic heat emitter so her shell can hopefully smooth out.
I really appreciate the feedback from everyone. I think reading this forum over the last couple years has made me a better tortoise owner, and I am certainly in awe of the knowledge many of you have.
Thank you for your wisdom.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Ok, I’ll try to aim for 82-84. I get what you’re saying about creating a more ambient temperature with an enclosed chamber.
Just from your experience, how can this be achieved with an adult Redfoot that needs a large enclosure? Like how would you get in to clean it? I’m open to ideas.

I second the idea with green house tents, at least it quick to try and too see if it works (in terms of temperatures, humidity and tortoise activity). The greenhouse we are talking about is not outdoors, but simply a cover to be placed over or around the enclosure. Here is link on Amazon to get an idea: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GOO83UK/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Also, since your tortoise have her cozy corner, we may try to preserve it - remove CHE and use chicken brooder panel (it has much less surface temperatures than CHE).

I admire your devotion to make tortoise life better. Thank you!

 

[Emiliar33]

I second the idea with green house tents, at least it quick to try and too see if it works (in terms of temperatures, humidity and tortoise activity). The greenhouse we are talking about is not outdoors, but simply a cover to be placed over or around the enclosure. Here is link on Amazon to get an idea: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GOO83UK/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Also, since your tortoise have her cozy corner, we may try to preserve it - remove CHE and use chicken brooder panel (it has much less surface temperatures than CHE).

I admire your devotion to make tortoise life better. Thank you!

I second the idea with green house tents, at least it quick to try and too see if it works (in terms of temperatures, humidity and tortoise activity). The greenhouse we are talking about is not outdoors, but simply a cover to be placed over or around the enclosure. Here is link on Amazon to get an idea: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GOO83UK/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

Also, since your tortoise have her cozy corner, we may try to preserve it - remove CHE and use chicken brooder panel (it has much less surface temperatures than CHE).

I admire your devotion to make tortoise life better. Thank you!

I see now what you mean about using a greenhouse as a cover. That’s a good idea. I am definitely inspired. And the idea of using a chicken brooder is excellent. She’d probably love that! I think she’ll be getting some upgrades!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Please, post an update It's always interesting to see how ideas come to life. And feedback on what's worked or not is valuable.

 

[Emiliar33]

I will definitely post an update once she gets her new setup!

 

[Emiliar33]

Just an update. We have moved and lowered the wattage of her ceramic heat emitter so now she is only getting up to 85-86 degrees at night. We are also in the process of building her an enclosed top to her enclosure.
BUT in all my fussing, I discovered a few holes in her shell between the scutes. One just appears to be a little cavern along the scute line with just more shell at the base of it. It has a small opening, but when I shine a flashlight in the hole, it looks like it travels underneath the whole scute line. Two are open spaces with white in the middle of it. All are painful when I touch them (especially the white ones).
Is this still from too much heat/too little humidity, or is this another problem? Could there be an infection going on? Is her nutrient intake/uvb out of whack? Do I need to take her to the vet?
Pictures below. The area looks a little brown cause I painted some betadine on them in my panic. And her shell is shiney now from trying Yvonne’s coconut oil idea.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I can't tell for sure, what is this. These are could be new growth seams (they are white and get darker later), but touching should not be painful (however, these are sensitive to some extent).

What I would do:
1. Stop using betadine. You were right applying it once, but it should not be used more than couple of times.
2. Clear the coconut oil by gentle rubbing with a paper towel then give a usual soaking. Dry the shell with a paper towel, especially between scutes.
3. Take a photo under direct sunlight or lamp - to get a clear picture of white areas. And to see if there is any scute chipping, if there is any kind of white fluid and so.
4. Apply a bit of coconut oil only between scutes.
5. Check her plastron. If it's a shell rot/fungus there are chances it started from below.

Just for the notice:
T5 UVB lamps have an average lifespan of 6-12 months (after that time UV levels are just to low).

 

[Emiliar33]

Here are some updated photos after she was soaked. The cavernous hole does appear to run underneath her scute line and there is a bunch of cracking/flaking around it. Some of the flakes are mobile and that seems to be where she is uncomfortable. I am a little worried about water getting trapped in it. The white ones don’t appear to have any drainage with them. And it’s really hard to tell whether the white areas are soft or solid without poking something into it. Her plastron looks clear.
Her t5 is 4 months old and we replace it every 6 months.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks for new photos! It's much more clear now.
1. Her plastron looks really healthy
2. Since white marks are not dripping liquid, that's fine too.
3. To me these cracks look like burnt and withered keratine.
4. Some water in the cracks should not harm (as you bath her in a clean water, not in the muddy puddle).

@ZEROPILOT or @Yvonne G could you take a look, please? I'm kind of numb here with my lack of practical experience.

 

[Emiliar33]

Thanks for new photos! It's much more clear now.
1. Her plastron looks really healthy
2. Since white marks are not dripping liquid, that's fine too.
3. To me these cracks look like burnt and withered keratine.
4. Some water in the cracks should not harm (as you bath her in a clean water, not in the muddy puddle).

@ZEROPILOT or @Yvonne G could you take a look, please? I'm kind of numb here with my lack of practical experience.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I’ll try and keep the areas clean and proceed with her enclosure upgrades. Hopefully it will help.

 

[Emiliar33]

As promised… some updates on her new improvements. Still a bit of work to do, but I thought I’d share.