Most Common Adult Size for American PP and PB?

[diamondbp]

That sounds like my guy. I'm not sure that ALL of the pp in circulation today didn't originally come from him. He's been producing babies since the 90s.

We you ever able to see the size of his adults? Male size? female size?

It seems in the wild photos of south african leopards that the males can obtain a larger size than the females, but all the captive ones I've seen the males have been much smaller

Yes. I did see all the adults and I have pictures. I'm traveling cross country right now, but remind me and I will email or post some.

And we also have a relatively new member that managed to get some of these original imports and he's posted several pics of his too. Can't remember the username...

Just a friendly reminder to post those P.Pardalis adult pictures when you get a chance.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

In the "show us your leopards" thread, about page 22, I posted wild types from the north and south portions of the southern Karoo, RSA. They show some of the traits ascribed to several populations.

 

[diamondbp]

Thanks Will! I'll be sure to look that up

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Here is the quick link to that page. Yes, must see! Insanely, cool pictures. J'adore! : )

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-72026-page-22.html

 

[diamondbp]

Thanks beebee. I remember seeing those but for whatever reason I didn't save the pictures BUUT They are saved now So impressive! Don't ya just love this forum?!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

In the "show us your leopards" thread, about page 22, I posted wild types from the north and south portions of the southern Karoo, RSA. They show some of the traits ascribed to several populations.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-72026-page-22.html

Here is that thread/page. You can see a wide range of morphology, as these have been selected over a period of time that may well be 60+ years from no doubt 1,000 of neonates and hatchling enduring the trials of nature. NOT intensely selected and pushed to thrive by people over 20+ years. At least leopard gecko, ball python, and bearded dragon breeders call it what it is, selective breeding in captivity. I guess the slow turnaround for tortoises gives breeders time to conjure up POV's that don't have traction any other way, than to say it's scientifically described subspecies, ones that scientists don't recognize any more.

That there are differences is without doubt. That they may be based on a micro gene pool that MAY have locality data, either as described or from another location, but still all one 'wild type' population is probable too.

The argument that there is no 'wild' and yet these are specific locality animals from the wild do not reconcile with each other. I think there is wild myself, and that you can select animals both in captivity and from the wild for certain traits is 100% true.

I saw just a small bit of southern South Africa, almost entirely confined to the Western Cape Province. I did not get on the southern coast, Addo, or the most north west coast. But the variability of leopards in that smallish area certainly speaks to incredible variability that defies 'subspecies' recognition or status. In Bill Branche's book on southern African herps he abandon the notion before the genetics were scrutinized.

I find some leopards more attractive than others, and like some super special bearded dragon that changes color as it ages or whatever, it seems reasonable to charge more for those hatchlings. This is based on selective breeding, not systematics.