Loneliness / wanting to get another

[LeopardTortLover]

Okay... I know the topic of loneliness has been brought up many a time before, so sorry for bringing it up again but I'm still torn on the matter.

In the wild, how social are leopard tortoises? Do they hang around in groups or on their own? Or in pairs, threes?

The reason I'm asking is because every day I see Marley lying in his box on his own, and I feel sorry for him. And every day Im more and more inclined to get another. The thing is, I could only ever have 2 maximum and Ive read you should only have 1, 3, or more than three.

How well do Leos get on in pairs? Does anybody have 2 leos?

I have room for 1 more leo, and i have the money too. But I have neither for 2 more leos. But i dont want Marley to be sad or lonely. Can anybody offer their thoughts and personal experiences on this?

Please don't blast me on wanting 2 tortoises - I would never get another if it was to effect either tortoise in a bad way.

 

[Greg T]

I know you will get a variety of opinions on this one. I had two guys for a while and they got along great. I have three adults now and the still get along well. Even with the babies, they all hang out together and follow each other. So I'm inclined to say they do have a tendancy to make friends and be social. As long as there is no bullying, I think having multiple leo's together is okay.

 

[Yvonne G]

If you want another tortoise, then, by all means get one. But don't make the excuse that your tortoise wants a companion, because he doesn't. He is very happy looking around his territory and saying, "This is all mine!!!" Tortoises don't share well.

Get another tortoise and set up another habitat, but don't make your tortoise unhappy by adding an interloper to his pen...something he's going to have to try to chase out of his territory.

It is so easy for us all to put OUR feelings on our tortoises. Tortoises don't "feel" like humans do. All they know is sit in the sun, eat, police their territory, sit in the sun, eat...oh, and I forgot - poop!!

After having said all that, I must admit that I have 5 leopards in a pen. But it is an outdoor pen, it has always contained multiple tortoises, so no one tortoise has ever claimed it as his territory, and it is big enough that they all can get away from each other so no fighting has to occur.

 

[LeopardTortLover]

Its not that I WANT another tortoise particularly. Its more of I think I need one FOR Marley. I'm happy with just the one if he's happy. The only reason id be getting one is for him. Okay, about 90% for him and 10% for me but I'm happy just having the one.

How do I know if he's a territorial tortoise? He just seems so placid and relaxed. Never marches around, never moves things out of the way, never rams my hand when its in there. He just seems so peaceful I can never imagine him fighting or being territorial. But saying that, I've never seen him with another tortoise. I can just imagine him sniffing it and then leaving him alone.

Am I being crazy? XD

 

[ra94131]

Its not that I WANT another tortoise particularly. Its more of I think I need one FOR Marley. I'm happy with just the one if he's happy. The only reason id be getting one is for him. Okay, about 90% for him and 10% for me but I'm happy just having the one.

How do I know if he's a territorial tortoise? He just seems so placid and relaxed. Never marches around, never moves things out of the way, never rams my hand when its in there. He just seems so peaceful I can never imagine him fighting or being territorial. But saying that, I've never seen him with another tortoise. I can just imagine him sniffing it and then leaving him alone.

Am I being crazy? XD

Based on this response, I'd say stick with the single tortoise. Not only are tortoises generally solitary creatures, but it sounds like yours is established and happy as "king" of his domain.

 

[sibi]

The error you're making is that YOU feel your tort is lonely. Torts DON'T feel like humans do. Like Yvonne said, they only know to eat, stay warm, to roam THEIR space, mate (later), and poop. Outside of that, what you may want to do to make his space more interesting is to add bright colors like flowers, new greens, something new that could perk his interest. If you want another Leo, get it, but be prepared to house him separately if need be. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[FlatStanley]

Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have determined whether or not tortoises experience loneliness? I mean, what if a tortoise was happier or lived longer if more than one was in the enclosure. I have read about studies that were way more bizarre than this idea. [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

 

[LeopardTortLover]

Re: RE: Loneliness / wanting to get another

Does anyone know of any scientific studies that have determined whether or not tortoises experience loneliness? I mean, what if a tortoise was happier or lived longer if more than one was in the enclosure. I have read about studies that were way more bizarre than this idea. [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

That's what id really like to know. But how do you measure a tortoises happiness? And how do we know whether they feel loneliness or not? Mammals do, why not reptiles? Is it a matter of brain size?

Also, our job as carers for animals in captivity is to replicate how they live in the wild. Unfortunately nobody has answered how they live in the wild yet... In terms of how often Leopards interact with each other and for what reasons.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think what most of us go by besides our own personal experience, is the fact that you never see them together in the wild. This is not referring to the Aldabrans or Galapagos, which you almost always see in herds. But people going to foreign countries to look for tortoises always show us pictures of walking for days and never seeing a tortoise, or walking for days and finally spotting ONE tortoise. You never see them together.

 

[sibi]

Empirical evidence shows what torts do consistently. They search for food, warm shelter, water, and if male, a mate to satisfy his insatiable appetite. They often will either fight for one or all of these needs, or take flight. These are facts about the behaviors of tortoises in general. I have not read anything that would suggest that tortoises are social animals that prefer to travel or be part of a herd. Unlike elephants, dolphins, and chimpanzees, which thrive in group/family settings, tortoises have consistently shown otherwise. Are there exceptions? Sure, but exceptions doesn't make them social animals by nature. I have two sullies that are siblings that got along for months. They would even cuddle up to each other for warmth, but if given a separate enclosure where that world is only theirs, they would opt for the latter. I've experienced this first hand, just as others have. Perhaps you need to experience things for yourself, but be careful in the event that there should be bullying. I think you'll change your mind about putting two torts together for companionship.

 

[LeopardTortLover]

That's why I wanted to ask the forum their opinions and experiences, because I don't have experience with more than one tort so I don't know. I don't want to do anything to upset my tortoise. I just wanted to know the reasons why I should keep one, or more than one, if that makes sense.

It seems, from this thread and previous reading, that torts are okay by themselves but some people prefer to keep groups so that they don't feel their torts are lonely?

This has helped me feel that he isn't lonely anyway. I'm sure I provide him with enough company by talking to him (annoying him) but like I say, just wanted some opinions.

 

[jjsull33]

I don't have leos, but I know with my torts they prefer to be alone, I was letting a new male roam my yard yesterday and my oldest male that was in his outdoor pen saw him through a slit and spent the next hour trying to get out to chase the one in the yard away from "his" territory. This same tort used to live together in a pair and did so like friends for 9 years, not a single problem and then one day he decided it was his area and he started attacking the other tort, he ripped up her front legs pretty bad and while its all healed up now you can still see where the cuts were and the scales that were pulled off. I say its risky and your tort probably wants to be left alone, however if you do get one be prepared with a second enclosure because you never know when one will decide it is his home not their home.

 

[LeopardTortLover]

I decided not to get another one. After realising his behaviour is more likely showing contentedness rather than loneliness. I've noticed recently he'll more often than not sit in a place where he can see his entire enclosure - I think he's patrolling it in his own way and I can actually imagine him being a dominant tortoise sometimes. I think I'll just leave him be.

I've also decided to get a giant breed of rabbit, hopefully they can be friends one day

 

[Tom]

In captivity we often keep tortoises together for convenience or breeding. I don't have time to maintain 40 separate enclosure right now, but its pretty easy to maintain 6.

Also understand the the behavioral dynamics of a pair can be very different than the behavioral dynamics of a group. Tropical fish keepers understand this well. A pair of goramys will seldom work, but 6 of them works just fine in most cases. Same with tortoises.

This is also going to vary a lot by species, and even subspecies. My South African leopards are territorial and pushy like sulcatas. Big bruisers they are. Most leopards are fairly peaceful and seemingly get along just fine. Rather than hostile combat like a Russian, leopards are more prone to just quietly stressing out if they don't like their cage mates, not that they won't play the chasing and biting game sometimes too. Redfoots tend to do well in groups, and so do pancakes, but even these frequently don't get along in pairs.

Interestingly, at least about the group photos of the Galapagos tortoises, we had a couple presentations on them at last years TTPG conference and the speaker told me they are actually quite solitary most of the time, and that those famous photos are taken near the watering holes where they congregate at times seasonally.

In short, I agree with everyone else that your tortoise does not need or want a companion. Adding a second tortoise would very likely be a stressful, unpleasant, and unwanted change. I think you have chosen wisely.

 

[LeopardTortLover]

Thanks for the information Tom, I was hoping you'd reply to this. Mine is a Babcocki (sorry I've forgotten the origin for the proper name) and I've said in a previous post he seems placid and relaxed and I doubt he'd cause trouble. Either way, I won't get another, I've probably been misinterpreting his behaviour and putting human emotions onto him! He seems quite happy pottering around the garden on his own, finding white pebbles that he shouldnt and climbing mountains (small hills).

 

[Tom]

Funny. Some people hope I WON'T chime in, while others hope I will.

We studied the common phenomenon that you profess to be guilty of in college when I was earning my animal degrees. It is called "anthropomorphism".

I'm glad to hear Marley is doing well and getting some sunshine.

 

[jjsull33]

Funny. Some people hope I WON'T chime in, while others hope I will.

I often enjoy hearing your input, while others may disagree, I find it interesting, plus I always like to hear what experienced users have to say.

 

[Hallbomber]

I have two. Both males. They sleep, eat, and walk around together very peacefully.

 

[stinax182]

i believe if you were to get another tortoise, you should try to get one of similar size to your current tort and also rearrange/enlarge the enclosure. the best scenario would be to start off with two younger torts (maybe not hatchlings because it would be more difficult to monitor them)


i also adopted two Russian males that had been in a pet store together and the previous owner bought them together, so they had been housed together for at least 7 years. when they were in my care, they thrived because i was caring for them better than anyone had. but once they both started enjoying life, one became territorial and aggressive and i had to separate them. so just be prepared to have two separate indoor and outdoor enclosures, if need be.

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