Intergrade?

[Eric Phillips]

I was contacted through a friend about if I wanted this little one. The owners moved here from Missouri and their son prefers the red eared slider over this guy. Pretty colorful dude(I suspect) and it is a 3 toed. Just wondering if anyone suspects it maybe an intergrade? The shell pattern has me thinking it could be.

 

[cmacusa3]

Looks like a 3 toed hybrid to me, Love the colors. Another nice add!!

 

[ColleenT]

pretty little guy. my own male 3 toed has the orange face and legs but the shell is very dull, so i suspect a hybrid.

 

[lisa127]

3 toeds do not always have dull shells. My pure 3 toed is not....he has plenty of pattern to his shell.

 

[mark1]

i have seen three toed box turtles with eastern type patterns on their shells too , but i do believe any that have that are intergrades or hybrids ...... personally i think the overlapping ranges is why it is so hard to differentiate between some of eastern box turtle subspecies .... where they don't overlap the differences are clear cut .......

 

[Eric Phillips]

i have seen three toed box turtles with eastern type patterns on their shells too , but i do believe any that have that are intergrades or hybrids ...... personally i think the overlapping ranges is why it is so hard to differentiate between some of eastern box turtle subspecies .... where they don't overlap the differences are clear cut .......

Bingo, the Eastern pattern is a bit too predominant with this little one. Missouri being one of those overlapping areas.

 

[pclare]

No offense to slider lovers, but what was that kid thinking? That's such a beautiful, alert-looking turtle! I definitely concur that there was a three toe - Eastern hookup.

 

[PJay]

Such a look of intelligence in that eye. Watch out for that one, it'll be running the place in a matter of days. I'm constantly surprised how smart these turtles are. People look down at reptiles like they aren't as smart as mammal pets. Box turtles can learn things as well as my dog can. Maybe not as fast but not far behind.

 

[Eric Phillips]

Such a look of intelligence in that eye. Watch out for that one, it'll be running the place in a matter of days. I'm constantly surprised how smart these turtles are. People look down at reptiles like they aren't as smart as mammal pets. Box turtles can learn things as well as my dog can. Maybe not as fast but not far behind.

Definitely I let him out in the back yard to roam and get some extra exercise everyday for about a half hour. He was a bit over weight when I got him. I fear he is plotting his escape from his enclosure lol

 

[lisa127]

i have seen three toed box turtles with eastern type patterns on their shells too , but i do believe any that have that are intergrades or hybrids ...... personally i think the overlapping ranges is why it is so hard to differentiate between some of eastern box turtle subspecies .... where they don't overlap the differences are clear cut .......

I disagree. Not every pure 3 toed is a plain tan or olive green. Many, like mine, have radiating yellow stripes. I don't believe that indicates an integrade (not hybrid). I'm not saying this particular one is pure.....the face/head doesn't even look pure 3 toed. But pattern on the shell does not necessarily indicate an integrade.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I know nothing about this species.
But that is an exceptionally pretty, alert and unusual turtle.
It must have been one amazing slider the kid kept!

 

[Eric Phillips]

I know nothing about this species.
But that is an exceptionally pretty, alert and unusual turtle.
It must have been one amazing slider the kid kept!

I think the father was a bit disappointed because he was taking the time to educate himself on box turtles but ultimately there wasn't enough interaction. I felt bad after I picked it up out of the box because he is a beauty, very unique. The slider was cool to the kid because he swam and caught feeder fish....little do they know what this guy will be when he gets older! I told them if they want to a try it again I would adopt out one of my hatchlings in the spring. I would be hard pressed to return this one though. Lol!

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I think the father was a bit disappointed because he was taking the time to educate himself on box turtles but ultimately there wasn't enough interaction. I felt bad after I picked it up out of the box because he is a beauty, very unique. The slider was cool to the kid because he swam and caught feeder fish....little do they know what this guy will be when he gets older! I told them if they want to a try it again I would adopt out one of my hatchlings in the spring. I would be hard pressed to return this one though. Lol!

And, of course, it's quite possible the kid will lose interest.
I somehow doubt that you will.................

 

[Eric Phillips]

And, of course, it's quite possible the kid will lose interest.
I somehow doubt that you will.................

At being a kid???.....lol.......heck no!! Box turtles to boot

 

[pclare]

I guess I can understand. My love of turtles began as a kid growing up at a lake, so "turtle" meant "water turtle" - namely painteds - to me. I'd never even met a box turtle in person until I was out of college.
I don't recommend turtles as pets to anyone, and actually try a bit to talk them out of it unless they're willing to do it right, but if they persist I always recommend box over water.

 

[mark1]

I disagree. Not every pure 3 toed is a plain tan or olive green. Many, like mine, have radiating yellow stripes. I don't believe that indicates an integrade (not hybrid). I'm not saying this particular one is pure.....the face/head doesn't even look pure 3 toed. But pattern on the shell does not necessarily indicate an integrade.

integrade populations are a natural genetically distinct group , they actually are "pure" , sort of an intermediate subspecies .... they're not the same as a hybrid ........ eastern box turtles and three toeds distribution pretty much overlaps the majority of the three toeds range .. the two subspecies can interbreed , but they do prefer different habitat , there is a transition zone between these habitats . to not expect a transitional subspecies in these areas would be , well imo , mistaken .... i don't believe you will see any of the western species of box turtle that are not easily differentiated from an eastern ..... you will find many easterns , three toeds and gulf coast , that to differentiate them would be a guess at best ...... i've personally never seen a florida box turtle that was hard to differentiate from an eastern , three toed or gulf coast either .......

 

[lisa127]

integrade populations are a natural genetically distinct group , they actually are "pure" , sort of an intermediate subspecies .... they're not the same as a hybrid ........ eastern box turtles and three toeds distribution pretty much overlaps the majority of the three toeds range .. the two subspecies can interbreed , but they do prefer different habitat , there is a transition zone between these habitats . to not expect a transitional subspecies in these areas would be , well imo , mistaken .... i don't believe you will see any of the western species of box turtle that are not easily differentiated from an eastern ..... you will find many easterns , three toeds and gulf coast , that to differentiate them would be a guess at best ...... i've personally never seen a florida box turtle that was hard to differentiate from an eastern , three toed or gulf coast either .......

Yes, of course they overlap and breed.....

In fact, I own an integrade.

 

[Eric Phillips]

This pattern on the shell of this EBT shown in the pic is predominant on easterns, generally you don't see it in 3 toeds. This little 3 toed has a similar formation shell pattern along with 3 toed shell lines

 

[lisa127]

View attachment 182477

This pattern on the shell of this EBT shown in the pic is predominant on easterns, generally you don't see it in 3 toeds. This little 3 toed has a similar formation shell pattern along with 3 toed shell lines

Agreed, this particular turtle shows a different pattern. Usually if there is a pattern on a 3 toed it is simply light radiating yellow lines.

But there certainly are 3 toeds with some pattern on the shell.

 

[lisa127]

Like this. Though this guy is quite faded now.