I thought "female"...maybe I am wrong?

[tortoro]

I have four RTs. I just acquired one from the same friend who gave me my other RTs. Totora and Mononoke are both proven female, as I got to witness them lay clutches. Squee and Speedy are the ones I am now unsure about. Before I get harassed about not quarantining my newest tort, Speedy, please keep in mind that all these torts were previously homed together and that I am very close friends with their breeder, so I know they are parasite and illness-free.

Squee, I am almost positive is female, because she has a FAT, fat tail. And she is the one getting harassed. But she will also chase number four, my new tort, Speedy (the one I am REALLY unsure about) about, but never shell-butts.

Speedy is the questionable one. "She" is JUST about 5 inches, so "she" very well could be a "he", which is why I picked an ambiguous name. Here is my dilemma: Even though Speedy looks to be female or an immature male, "she" ACTS like a testosterone infused teenage boy-tort. She shell-butts Squee (even though they were housed together with no issues before I adopted them...they were adopted a month apart, and this issue is recent), chases Squee around and, in general, Squee is harassed the way female Russies are by male Russies.

Speedy has NOT flashed, or at least I haven't seen it. And Speedy acts like my male Greek does when in the mood.

Is it even possible for a male tort to show sexytime signs before even LOOKING the part?

Here are some pics of Squee, the one doing a bit of harassing, but mostly getting harassed:


And here are a couple of the hind end of the main offender, Speedy:




Hopefully, now you will see why I am so confused!

 

[JoesMum]

Both male and female RTs will butt, bite and chase to defend their territory; this is not gender specific behaviour. When you introduced a newcomer you upset the status quo and you hence the behaviour that you describe. It could get worse and you may need to separate them.

In the wild these tortoises live largely solitary lives and roam over huge territories. They meet up to mate and move on. They don't want or need company.

Keeping them in enclosures gives them a much smaller area than their wild territory, so unless the enclosure is very large and has many sight barriers you will get squabbling. This often gets worse as they mature. Keep an eye on them and be prepared to separate... and be prepared to accept that this may have to be permanent.

 

[tortoro]

Not worried about having to separate, if needed. We have ample room, as well as two other tort tables. I have just never witnessed such an upset, especially when these torts were already in the same enclosure before I adopted them. I have also not had the pleasure of witnessing females harassing each other to the extent Speedy (if it is female and not immature male) harasses Squee.

 

[StarSapphire22]

I'm thinking immature male, but let's see what others say.

 

[tortoro]

The enclosure I have them in is an 8x8x6x6x6 ft baseball diamond-shaped enclosure (24 inches deep, with as deep as 12 inches substrate in the cool end), with ample sight barriers.

 

[JoesMum]

The enclosure I have them in is an 8x8x6x6x6 ft baseball diamond-shaped enclosure (24 inches deep, with as deep as 12 inches substrate in the cool end), with ample sight barriers.

That sounds enormous! They must be outdoors

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Looks female to me. You could be seeing dominant female behavior.

Here is a photo of a mature male next to an immature male for you to compare:

The mature male: (obviously, whoa mama!)

The immature male: (couldn't find a cloaca photo)

Not sure if this helps...but I hope it does

 

[tortoro]

Nope, they are indoors. Our downstairs has a playroom and "bonus" room. They are housed in the bonus room. WA State is too nasty to keep them outside. They go out for at least 1hr a day, weather permitting.

 

[tortoro]

Looks female to me. You could be seeing dominant female behavior.

Here is a photo of a mature male next to an immature male for you to compare:

The mature male: (obviously, whoa mama!)

The immature male: (couldn't find a cloaca photo)

Not sure if this helps...but I hope it does

The last photo of the immature male looks like mine. The only reason I am confused is because Speedy's cloaca resembles a female's, even though "she" carries her tail to the side and it is longer and more pointed than my females.

 

[tortoro]

Regardless of sex, if Speedy continues to have attitude (which I love in a tort, as long as it isn't directed at fellow torts), she will go in the other enclosure and live a happy life solo!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I wished I had a photo of the cloaca... it did resemble a females but not exactly...

The tail was always held to the side and was more pointed.

 

[biochemnerd808]

You've already received excellent advice from Heather and Joe's Mum... I agree 100% that this is not necessarily a 'male/female' problem, but most likely just a regular old 'tortoises are territorial little buggers' problem. Even if they used to get along, one of them might have matured, or the bigger space they have is resulting in them feeling like they have more to defend. I've observed my tortoises getting MORE territorial when Ig gave them more space. I think it's because they just felt more freedom to act more tortoise-like.

On a side note, we live in SW WA, and my tortoises are outdoors 24/7 since May. I bring them inside on the REALLY rainy days, but any day(s) that are 60 degrees or warmer and not pouring torrentially, they get to be outside. Their tortoise garden is built halfway under the eaves of our house, so they have plenty of dry roaming space. I've also built them a little house with a clear roof that gets pretty toasty, even on cool days. So, if you have some space in your yard that you are willing to convert, it would be worth it, even in Bremerton. I've seen a significant improvement in the tortoise's shell health and overall well-being in my tortoises since they spend the majority of their time outside. They have also started breeding! (3 clutches of eggs so far).

If you have any question about setting up an outdoor enclosure that is good for the Pacific NW, I am happy to help, and @lynnedit would surely be happy to help, too. She lives in the same town as we do, and her set-up is WAY nicer than mine is.