Hermann's Tortoise questions

[Diogo4]

Hey everyone. I am looking at getting a Hermann Tortoise and when I went to my exotic pet store was shown 3 different types with significant price discrepancies. I don't want to speak ill of my store but I feel like I'm being had. They looked very very similar. Can anyone illuminate me on this and why if there are indeed various types such a price difference?

 

[Tom]

Supply and demand. There are three subspecies and they are all different. There are Easterns which are the most common and cheapest, Dalmations which are in between and Westerns which are much more rare and harder to come by than the other two.

If you don't know the difference and it does not matter to you, then you should be quite happy with the Eastern hermanni as they are excellent tortoises.

 

[TylerStewart]

It's very, very unlikely that a local pet store would have Western hermanns at all, and probably wouldn't have dalmatians, either. They may think they do, but they probably do not. I would go with Eastern like Tom said. With anything else, my guess is that you would be getting an Eastern anyways, but potentially paying more for something else.

 

[Jabuticaba]

Any chance of getting pictures of these guys? If you want heathy animals, perhaps you should consider contacting reputable breeders. Check out the breeders page.


May
IG: @AUSSOMEAUSSIES

 

[Diogo4]

It's very, very unlikely that a local pet store would have Western hermanns at all, and probably wouldn't have dalmatians, either. They may think they do, but they probably do not. I would go with Eastern like Tom said. With anything else, my guess is that you would be getting an Eastern anyways, but potentially paying more for something else.

Actually it is here in Las Vegas where I saw them. Tylerstewart I saw you live here anyplace you recommend that I should purchase them?

 

[HermanniChris]

Tyler and Tom hit the nail on the head with this one. I would love to see photos just out of curiosity though. An eastern is 100% your best bet especially if this is your first tortoise.

 

[HermanniChris]

Just took this shot, it's terrible but it might be helpful to you.

From right to left, Dalmatian, Eastern and Western. Don't pay attention to size here because the Western is older than the other two.

 

[HermanniChris]

One more. Western (foreground) Eastern (background).

 

[THBfriend]

I'd like to point out that the differences in Chris' photos are more because of individual variation than because of general differences between the subspecies (the Dalmatian's status as subspecies is also disputed). The Eastern hatchling in Chris' first photo looks quite yellow. Mine look like this:

In the second picture, the Eastern's shell is lower in contrast than the Western's. But that's due to the age difference. After a couple of years, Eastern Hermann's also can get a hight contrast shell:

 

[HermanniChris]

Individuality is huge with Hermann's tortoises. The truth is that extreme variation can and does occur even within a given population in nature. It's sometimes harder to differentiate when it comes to hatchlings or juveniles but some constants typically remain. The intensity of the yellow ground color of the Western Hermann's tortoise is commonly unmatchable and this goes for hatchlings all the way through to elderly adults. However, this can and absolutely does vary. Certain locales such as Gargano (Apulia) are known for brilliant pastel color. Eastern specimens deriving from certain mountain chains can also have an eye catching yellow as well, which can make things confusing. Usually, it is the Eastern Hermann's that exhibits a drabber appearance with a more ochre, straw colored or tan carapace. Juveniles are almost always cleaner and brighter looking especially in captivity. Size is another factor that can throw you off. The Western subspecies is thought to be the smallest and this is certainly true when it comes to specimens from Mallorca, Apulia and Etna but Corsican and Sardinian animals can be utterly huge like many Eastern tortoises. Even some of our Tuscan and Sicilian hermanni are surprisingly large. Some of our Eastern females are absolute monsters at 9+ inches while most top out around 7.5-8". So, you can see the variation and how mind boggling it can get. This is just a taste of what's out there. Even in some of our groups you can see it. Several tortoises will look like images of each other and then all of a sudden there's an odd ball. But we know exactly where they are from so there is no question. It's nature. It's beautiful but it throws us for a loop.

Here are some photos to show some variation:

Heads of hatchlings, Eastern (right), Western (left). Note that both have the sub ocular spot but the on the Western, the yellow is richer.


Plastron shots, Westerns (bottom), Easterns (top). Even has hatchlings, Westerns have continuos black bands extending from the humeral scutes to the anal scutes but again this can and does vary at times.


In this photo two youngsters closer in age are shown, Western (right), Eastern (left).


Typical Eastern babies we produce:


Westerns from Sicily born here of now 6 months old:


An attractively colored juvenile Eastern with a noticeable sub ocular spot and nice yellow color:


So, the point is that it's tough at times to differentiate as hatchlings. There are traits that you can 100% rely on of course which has been discussed in detail previously. Once they grow up it usually becomes much easier to see the difference as I'll try to depict in these photos:

Adult Western from Sicily (Madonie):


Typical adult female Eastern:


Keep in mind the Eastern is by no means lacking in color, she's just not wetted down like the Western, however, her yellow is far less intense then the Western's.

These are also just a few small examples. There's plenty of info on the internet and on my site hermannihaven.com you can see tons of photos of many of our tortoise groups.

 

[Diogo4]

Everyone has been wonderful in being so thorough in their explanations. I've decided that I would love a western Hermann's tortoise. Can anyone recommend a reputable breeder for me? I live in Las Vegas, Nevada

 

[jaredherman]

Talk to the Chris who posted above. He is the man to talk to.

 

[diamondbp]

Diogo4 , if you are really serious about getting an "undoubtedly" western hermanni you need to speak with hermannichris about getting one. He is the only one I would trust to get a 100% western. As far as I'm aware there is an extremely low number of western hermanni owners in the states , let alone actual BREEDERS. Chris has an extensive collection that is REALLY impressive. I too hope to be part of the exclusive hermanni hermanni owners club soon. The dalmation hermanns I got from Chris two years ago are fantastic specimens. Clearly from his response to your post he is the authority on this subject. Best of luck to you, keep us updated

 

[Diogo4]

One more. Western (foreground) Eastern (background).
View attachment 89709

Chris do you have any Western Hermann's available?

 

[KenS]

Diogo4 , if I was going to add western Herman's to my collection, I would "ONLY" trust getting them from Chris at www.gardenstatetortoise.com.Chris is the only one I would trust that I'm getting a 100% western.Chris has dedicated his life to this species and it really shows in his continued success!!!!