First time tortoise owner with 2 cherry heads needs advice

[Jackson7]

Hello,

My wife and I got 2 cherry heads (Cherry (F) and Berry (M)) 6 months ago we really like them and things have be going well so far (the forums have been very helpful). They are currently in a 2'x4' enclosure and I'm getting ready to build them a larger one.

Reading that they are social for tortoises, we got 2. However, I've read that 2 is an especially bad number, so before I build a larger enclosure, I'd like to figure out how to proceed.

I'm in MN so its going to be an indoor enclosure. I have a room that is separate from the central air that I can keep at 80F and 70%rh year round. Without changing anything I can build at least a 40sqft enclosure, but if I destroy a perfectly functional, though old and unused hot tub, I could easily fit something on the order of 150 sqft.

I can think of three paths:

Separate Chery and Berry now:

I don't really want to do this, but I would if I had to. It's logistically more difficult, we enjoy watching them interact, they really seem (at this younger age anyway) to prefer each other's company (choosing the same hide when multiple options are available). Maybe most importantly is if they can share an enclosure they can live in twice as big a space.

Do they actually prefer each others company?
Its my assumption that a space twice as big with 2 torts is "bigger" than a smaller space with 1 tort, correct?


Plan to separate them later:

So far Cherry and Berry have gotten along great. I could simply hope that this is the rare case where I have 2 torts that just get along forever, build however big an enclosure I can and then if they get aggressive, build a brick wall down the middle.

How likely is that to work out? I've been led to believe its unlikely.
I've read that 32sqft (8'x4') is the minimum for an adult, is that the minimum they'll be happy? healthy? survive?


More Tortoises:

I've read that female heavy herds are pretty stable for cherry heads. I'd prefer to have 4 torts together over 2 separated, provided I can take good care of them. This is what I have the most questions about:

Is 4 a good size? Is more necessary? Can 4 cherry heads live in a 12'x12' area? Could more?

Cherry and Berry both hit 5in today. It seems like cherry heads are sold at 4in more often than anything else. Is that too big of a size difference, would I need to find similarly sized torts?

Speaking of small torts, they can be kind of difficult to sex at that size. We were hoping to get two females the first time (we like Berry so that's okay), but it seems even more important to only have 1 male in a herd of 4? Any tips on how to guarantee that?

In that same vein, are cherry heads common at rescue? is that a possible option?

Sound like 3 months of quarantine is a good idea when getting new reptiles. At some point I'll have a big enclosure and my old small tank. Is it important that I introduce all the torts to the big enclosure at the sane time to avoid being territorial. Can the new torts quarantine in the old tank till they are safe and then be added to the big one?



I have some tangential questions about breeding. If I have males and females in the same area, breeding just happens right? Raising hatchlings sounds fun, but isn't my primary goal here. I know, for example, a lot of sulcata tortoises end up in rescues because they are so large, they live so long, and they are so easy to get. How in demand are cherry head tortoises? 50 years is a long time; how likely are they to end up living a good life? If the answer is low, are there ways to stop breeding besides separation or surgery?

-Thanks

 

[SinLA]

@ZEROPILOT

 

[G-stars]

I keep and breed Cherryheads. I wouldn’t recommend keeping 2 together. 3 is good. 4 is probably better. You won’t know the sex until they are around 4-5 years old on average.

Males are pretty persistent breeders. So you a group of 1 male and 3 females is ideal. But always be prepared to have to make a separate enclosure for the male. In general they aren’t an aggressive species. However, most people think that just because they don’t see ramming or biting that they are living peacefully. Many also believe that tortoises following each other or sleeping in the same spots means that they like each other. In reality it’s the opposite of that.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

 

[wellington]

I think you would do best by building two separate enclosures and sticking with just the two or rehoming one. If you get a group, you will need a very big enclosure, bigger then average room size and then likely still have to separate as you can't have two males together.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I fully agree with the above. Keep solitary tortoises. Or keep them in larger groups of all females. All adolescents. Or in groups with at least 3 females per male.
DO NOT ATTEMPT to keep groups of males!
The thing I'd like to ad to this discussion is that I don't suggest even attempting a group unless you have a nice area for a 24/7 outdoors enclosure. Or an area the size of a large bedroom indoors. And then you have the high humidity issue, too.
A solo Redfoot is definitely the best way to get your toes wet in this specialized hobby before you go diving into the deep end.
Another point you had was with breeding.
I do not allow the Redfoot in my care to breed. Because Redfoot are very common south Florida pets. And ive had issues finding forever homes that I felt are suitable.

 

[Jackson7]

Thanks for the replies.

Sounds like I should separate them. I have room for 2 6'x11' enclosures. I've done some looking around and it sounds like that's big enough for an adult but let me know if I'm mistaken.

They are currently 5in. How long till they need a their full sized enclosure? If its a couple years or more, I might build one of the enclosures and split it down the middle (so they'd each have 6'x5') and build the other later in case we move.

That said a 14'x11' is the biggest I could fit. Would that be enough for 4 adult cherry heads? Assuming at most 1 male (and a place to separate him), and all the regular environmental requirements can be met. If that's not big enough are we talking 50% bigger, twice as big, 4 times? Its kinda academic since I'm not thrilled about breeding but I'm curious anyway.

@ZEROPILOT, Thanks for that perspective on breeding, that's the info I was looking for.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

11x14 might be minimal and ok for 4 adult Cherryhead. With many hide areas and bushy plants. Cherryhead stay smaller.
But the thing is that no group acts like another. I can't guarantee you success. Because I've had as many as 9 living together for a very long time. Harmoniously. In roughly a 16x30. Then one by one, one stopped getting along and had to be moved.
Right now I have just four Redfoot. And each has to have its own outdoors enclosure because 3 are males.
I went from a keeper that had it made to a guy with a royal pain in my rear in about 6 months.
Start slowly. See what works for you. Find fellow enthusiasts near you that will take in your problem tortoises or maybe even trade to get the right combination for all of you. Plan on needing more room than you think you need. Plan on issues. Some tortoises. Even Redfoot are just hardwired to be alone and won't tolerate any others.
While others seem to not be able to care less. And others will just decide to stop cooperating for whatever reason.
Your results will be unique. And you'll see why this isn't any easy question to answer. And why I'm always very reluctant to tell anyone "that's enough size" or that any particular combination will work.
Also, have an area away from the main group for a quarantine pen. That can be a hospital pen later on. Or an overflow pen. Which is probably what it'll be used for mostly.

 

[Tom]

11x14 might be minimal and ok for 4 adult Cherryhead. With many hide areas and bushy plants. Cherryhead stay smaller.
But the thing is that no group acts like another. I can't guarantee you success. Because I've had as many as 9 living together for a very long time. Harmoniously. In roughly a 16x30. Then one by one, one stopped getting along and had to be moved.
Right now I have just four Redfoot. And each has to have its own outdoors enclosure because 3 are males.
I went from a keeper that had it made to a guy with a royal pain in my rear in about 6 months.
Start slow. See what works for you. Find fellow enthusiasts near you that will take in your problem tortoises or maybe even trade to get the right combination for all of you. Plan on needing more room than you think you need. Plan on issues. Some tortoises. Even Redfoot are just hardwired to be alone and won't tolerate any others.
While others seem to not be able to care less. And others will just decide to stop cooperating for whatever reason.
Your results will be unique. And you'll see why this isn't any easy question to answer. And why I'm always very reluctant to tell anyone "that's enough size" or that any particular combination will work.
Also, have an area away from the main group for a quarantine pen. That can be a hospital pen later on.

Eloquently stated and perfectly explained. Good helpful info here. Thank you for sharing your experience.

I read the questions from the OP and had to make a scrunchy face because there just are not simple one-size-fits-all answers to those questions. The answers are a bunch of maybe this or thats, depending on a whole bunch of other this or thats.

 

[Jackson7]

Okay, that clicks. Thanks for taking the time to explain it like that, that framwork will be helpful going forward.

 

[TammyJ]

11x14 might be minimal and ok for 4 adult Cherryhead. With many hide areas and bushy plants. Cherryhead stay smaller.
But the thing is that no group acts like another. I can't guarantee you success. Because I've had as many as 9 living together for a very long time. Harmoniously. In roughly a 16x30. Then one by one, one stopped getting along and had to be moved.
Right now I have just four Redfoot. And each has to have its own outdoors enclosure because 3 are males.
I went from a keeper that had it made to a guy with a royal pain in my rear in about 6 months.
Start slowly. See what works for you. Find fellow enthusiasts near you that will take in your problem tortoises or maybe even trade to get the right combination for all of you. Plan on needing more room than you think you need. Plan on issues. Some tortoises. Even Redfoot are just hardwired to be alone and won't tolerate any others.
While others seem to not be able to care less. And others will just decide to stop cooperating for whatever reason.
Your results will be unique. And you'll see why this isn't any easy question to answer. And why I'm always very reluctant to tell anyone "that's enough size" or that any particular combination will work.
Also, have an area away from the main group for a quarantine pen. That can be a hospital pen later on. Or an overflow pen. Which is probably what it'll be used for mostly.

This is fantastic advice and valuable information!

 

[turtlesteve]

I concur with advice already given. I think the proposed 11x14 is OK for a group of 4, but this will only work with some luck and your best odds will be with all females or one male. They all have unique personalities and you have to find a grouping that works out. Their personalities are very unique to the individual. A group can usually tolerate having one aggressive / dominant tortoise but not more than one. But in general, most males are aggressive and most females are timid.

I would strongly suggest you also have a smaller enclosure (4x8 ish) ready at all times, or a way of partitioning the larger enclosure. I use like a “time out” - remove the dominant tortoise for several days to a week to get him to chill and simultaneously give the others a break. And, if you find out suddenly that the group simply isn’t working you are not left in a crisis. In your situation i would be tempted to make a second level with a ramp, and a gate to open/close as needed.