At what point is outdoor heating NOT necessary

[ckromulus]

Hey guys! Its been a while but I hope I can start a pretty good conversation about this issue...

Background: I live just south of west palm beach in a town called Wellington...The temperature very very rarely drops into the 40s at night and almost never gets below 45. For instance, the following numbers are historical temperatures for the 3 coldest months down here:

Hi Avg Lo
NOVEMBER
Mean Temperature 76 °F 66 °F 59 °F
DECEMBER
Mean Temperature 79 °F 66 °F 52 °F
JANUARY
Mean Temperature 80 °F 73 °F 57 °F

I have a 60lb 4yr old sulcata named scooter who has a nice section of my yard with a deck box that I have installed a ceramic heat emitter on a timer. It did not survive the summer (it was off because the temp is always in the 70s-80s at night 9 months a year.

After doing some research on the Sahara desert I've noticed that the lows there are actually LOWER than the lows here in Wellington ranging from about 40-68 average nightly temps over the year.

MY MAIN THOUGHT: I am thinking about NOT heating the deck box this winter. The hole cut into the side for Scooter to get in and out is no bigger than necessary and I have about 8-10 inches of mulch in there for him to get nice and cozy when he digs in for the night.

MY MAIN QUESTION: What do you guys think about not heating him at night? It seems like that more closely mimics his natural environment and I have also read that it is not uncommon for them to deal with 20-30 F at night in their natural environment.

 

[G-stars]

Those temps might be correct I above ground however in the wild they go underground where the temps are warmer during colder weather and vice versa during warmer weather. Tortoises need higher temps in order to digest food as well. That's my 2 cents anyways.

 

[ckromulus]

Those temps might be correct I above ground however in the wild they go underground where the temps are warmer during colder weather and vice versa during warmer weather. Tortoises need higher temps in order to digest food as well. That's my 2 cents anyways.

I thought the same thing as well. However, I did find an article online from some dude who raised hundreds of tortoises and spoke of two wild caught sulcatas that refused to sleep in his heated homes and slept outside. He would sometimes even find them with frost on their shells but when they dug shallow pits to sleep in their plastron temp was ALWAYS 55+ degrees regardless of how cold it was outside. I can't find the blog at the moment.

I really want to try to replicate the natural climate as much as possible (even though I can't make the sun get much hotter than 105 here!). I can't imagine that the temps inside a burrow get much warmer than 55-60 degrees.

 

[ckromulus]

FOUND IT!

http://ojaisulcataproject.org/housing.html

 

[G-stars]

Perhaps but it never gets that cold where they are originally from. They don't have to deal with it being too cold just too hot. What I'm trying to say is that they might not know better and that's why they are out in the cold. @Tom might have some input on this subject I know he's discussed this topic somewhere.

 

[DeanS]

First things FIRST! You need to post photos of this BEAST! You'd be the first person EVER (as far as I know) to own a 60# 4YO!

Second, I lived in Wellington and NEVER experienced anything below 65ºF...but I guess things have changed in the past 15 years...because you could go as low as 65 to 70ºF and not need any heating. However, if temps do hit the 40s...it looks like you're going to need the night box and Ceramic Heat Emitter.

For the record...I randomly pulled out 3 regions that sulcata thrive in...and these are the results. It should also be clarified that sulcatas dwell in sub-Saharan regions...so adjustments to housing need to be duly noted...

Mali...Sea level...temps 61ºF (coldest) 102ºF (hottest)

Senegal...65ºF (coldest) 130ºF (hottest) humidity varies from the southernmost point to the northernmost...ranging from semi-arid to tropical to hot desert

Sudan...typical temps remain between 105º and 115º throughout the year...in the south temps can drop as low as 45ºF...but not often!

@Tom and I know an individual who claims keeping sulcatas outside when temps are ~20-30ºF is harmless...I don't agree!

 

[DeanS]

FOUND IT!

http://ojaisulcataproject.org/housing.html

That's the fellow I was referring to in the last line of the above post. I'm sure Tom will be along momentarily to illuminate you!

 

[mike taylor]

You have to think of daily highs . If it is 100 f above ground at night below ground will be in the 70/80 . I would make sure it doesn't get below 80 f in your night box . If he is eating he needs to be able to warm up so he can digest his food .

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You'd have to ask yourself this question. Do you want your tortoise to simply survive or thrive?

Just because a Sulcata can survive lower temps doesn't mean it should be subjected to them. It might even be risky. Why take that risk?

I know you say you want to replicate the natural environment...But I'd argue that the average backyard is too far from "natural" to make the argument valid.

 

[DeanS]

You'd have to ask yourself this question. Do you want your tortoise to simply survive or thrive?

Just because a Sulcata can survive lower temps doesn't mean it should be subjected to them. It might even be risky. Why take that risk?

I know you say you want to replicate the natural environment...But I'd argue that the average backyard is too far from "natural" to make the argument valid.

Exactly! Plus, captive tortoises do not have to tolerate the hostile conditions wild tortoises do! What might be survival for one...might simply break down the other! Food for thought!

 

[Alaskamike]

I think the key issue you are missing here is that in the wild, they create deep burrows. Underground , once you are down deep enough the temps are constant. I would venture in your area , 3 ' down , you could get to that.

Staying in a shed , or surface hide is nothing like " natural" for a sulcata. Heat the box , or look at the care sheets in the sulcata thread , especially the underground hides made. They are heated .... Or , deep enough to keep a constant temp of 70at least.

 

[Tom]

Other posters have already hit the key points, but I like to use my own words anyhow...

1. They don't come from the Sahara. Desert temps in the Sahara are different than temp in the grassland savannas of the Sahel region.
2. No matter what the overnight lows get to, then next day will be hot! Africa hot! No so in FL in winter.
3. Sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground, so the above ground highs and lows in that area are not what we should be going by. We should go by the temps in their burrows. In my burrows in summer at 3' deep, with 100 degree days and 65 degree nights above ground, the burrow temps stays a constant 80 degrees all summer long with no heat at all. If we have a hot spell with 110 degree days and 75 degree nights, my burrow temps might climb to 81-82. A summer cold spell with night temps down to low 60s or high 50s and daytime temps only reaching 88-90, might drop the burrow temps to 78-79.
4. They do not "deal" with 20-30 degree temps where they are in the wild. They don't "deal" with 50s or 60s either, because they are underground where the average temps is around 80 year round. My friend from Senegal tells me there are two seasons in sulcata territory. Hot and hotter. THere is no "winter" as we know it here in the US.
5. Yes. Some sulcatas including my friend Dave's in Ojai can survive lower temps. This does not mean its good for them, or something we should expose them too. I want my tortoises to thrive. Not barely make it, while I test the edges of survivable temps they can tolerate. A friend here in Socal didn't think he needed to heat his 5 year sucalta old either. It died. Happens all the time.
6. These areas where they say they are letting these tortoise survive cooler night temps are also very dry areas. YOUR area is about as far from dry as we get here in the states.

So DUDE! Heat your sulcata's night box this winter and all year. Just put it on a thermostat and you won't have to worry about it. Deck boxes generally are too drafty to do a good job either. You really ought to build an insulated sealed box. Something like one of these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Also CHEs are not good for large tortoises. They concentrate too much heat in one small spot and can burn the top of the carapace while the rest of the tortoise is too cold. The examples in my threads above work much better.

Aren't you glad you brought this up? Your tortoise will be much better off now.

 

[leopard777]

wow 20 -30 f , even i will freeze to death , seriously can a sulcata survive this temperature range ?

 

[ckromulus]

First things FIRST! You need to post photos of this BEAST! You'd be the first person EVER (as far as I know) to own a 60# 4YO!

Second, I lived in Wellington and NEVER experienced anything below 65ºF...but I guess things have changed in the past 15 years...because you could go as low as 65 to 70ºF and not need any heating. However, if temps do hit the 40s...it looks like you're going to need the night box and Ceramic Heat Emitter.

For the record...I randomly pulled out 3 regions that sulcata thrive in...and these are the results. It should also be clarified that sulcatas dwell in sub-Saharan regions...so adjustments to housing need to be duly noted...

Mali...Sea level...temps 61ºF (coldest) 102ºF (hottest)

Senegal...65ºF (coldest) 130ºF (hottest) humidity varies from the southernmost point to the northernmost...ranging from semi-arid to tropical to hot desert

Sudan...typical temps remain between 105º and 115º throughout the year...in the south temps can drop as low as 45ºF...but not often!

@Tom and I know an individual who claims keeping sulcatas outside when temps are ~20-30ºF is harmless...I don't agree!

He's actually closer to 6...After he turned 4 I have been unable to get his age right! Time has flown by I presume.

 

[ckromulus]

Other posters have already hit the key points, but I like to use my own words anyhow...

1. They don't come from the Sahara. Desert temps in the Sahara are different than temp in the grassland savannas of the Sahel region.
2. No matter what the overnight lows get to, then next day will be hot! Africa hot! No so in FL in winter.
3. Sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground, so the above ground highs and lows in that area are not what we should be going by. We should go by the temps in their burrows. In my burrows in summer at 3' deep, with 100 degree days and 65 degree nights above ground, the burrow temps stays a constant 80 degrees all summer long with no heat at all. If we have a hot spell with 110 degree days and 75 degree nights, my burrow temps might climb to 81-82. A summer cold spell with night temps down to low 60s or high 50s and daytime temps only reaching 88-90, might drop the burrow temps to 78-79.
4. They do not "deal" with 20-30 degree temps where they are in the wild. They don't "deal" with 50s or 60s either, because they are underground where the average temps is around 80 year round. My friend from Senegal tells me there are two seasons in sulcata territory. Hot and hotter. THere is no "winter" as we know it here in the US.
5. Yes. Some sulcatas including my friend Dave's in Ojai can survive lower temps. This does not mean its good for them, or something we should expose them too. I want my tortoises to thrive. Not barely make it, while I test the edges of survivable temps they can tolerate. A friend here in Socal didn't think he needed to heat his 5 year sucalta old either. It died. Happens all the time.
6. These areas where they say they are letting these tortoise survive cooler night temps are also very dry areas. YOUR area is about as far from dry as we get here in the states.

So DUDE! Heat your sulcata's night box this winter and all year. Just put it on a thermostat and you won't have to worry about it. Deck boxes generally are too drafty to do a good job either. You really ought to build an insulated sealed box. Something like one of these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Also CHEs are not good for large tortoises. They concentrate too much heat in one small spot and can burn the top of the carapace while the rest of the tortoise is too cold. The examples in my threads above work much better.

Aren't you glad you brought this up? Your tortoise will be much better off now.

Tom,

I was actually going to PM you instead of posting but I figured that this would be a great educational conversation for people to have even though I'm sure its been had over and over on this site and you are probably tired of repeating yourself.

I considered the lack of insulation inside the deck box as an issue so I took the following actions when I installed it. I cut open the walls from the top as the are bi-layered and filled the space with spray foam insulation. Used calk on the outside to seal all of the seams. It actually holds the heat really well. It is tucked in between a large mat of banana trees (on the outside of the enclosure) and some bamboo. It is so covered with vegetation that it doesn't even get wet when it rains. However, I have been toying with the idea of digging a very large trench and building a box like the ones you have shown and burying it.

What do you think about this:

Digging a shaft diagonally (kind of like if you were to put a staircase down into a basement from the outside) about 4-5ft wide and 10 ft long at an angle of about 20 degrees or so and lining it with a plywood shaft (or possibly cement) on bottom and both sides. Filling it with some dirt and mulch and then covering the top with sheet metal sans an opening for the tortoise to dig (i'd get the hole started). I'd then place a box on top to level out the opening and stop any rain from filling the shaft itself. I am an aerospace engineer by trade so the engineering of such a shaft wouldn't be out of my skill set. I would rig the shaft with sensors to record temps and humidity down the shaft as well. I would also take laser temp readings throughout the year and record it all on a spreadsheet. I think it would be a very interesting study.

I'd of course still build a heated, insulated box just like yours to replace the deck box. I am going to start on that ASAP. My only change would be to double the height of the box (at least) and bury it half way and fill the bottom half way with 80% dirt to 20% mulch so that he can dig himself a nice little burrow in there. Thoughts on any of this anyone?

 

[ckromulus]

He's actually closer to 6...After he turned 4 I have been unable to get his age right! Time has flown by I presume.

View attachment 102977 View attachment 102977 View attachment 102978 View attachment 102979

I have also been pretty lenient on what he eats. he has mowed the grass in his entire enclosure but it is large enough where it consistently grows and he keeps it really short. Banana leaves and flowers from the outside of enclosure. Weeds and grass from a garden I set up and just let florida grass and weeds take over...Two large hibiscus plants (about 6ft tall and 5 feet wide) inside the enclosure, desert rose, aloe, strawberry, grape leaves all growing just outside the enclosure wall that grow into the enclosure...an occasional dragon fruit. He enjoys pumpkin this time of year as well. And of course a nice prickly pear cactus growing just outside his perimeter as well. The enclosure itself runs about 100' and varies in width from 8 feet in some spots out to 25' in others. It seems to work really well because it is so long that he gets a lot of distance walking back and forth versus giving him a square.

 

[Yellow Turtle01]

I have just got to say, he is GORGEOUS! Very smooth!

 

[ckromulus]

I have just got to say, he is GORGEOUS! Very smooth!

thanks! I wish I could take credit but it's probably more to do with the south florida humidity

 

[ckromulus]

I have just got to say, he is GORGEOUS! Very smooth!

R

Here's a pic next to my size 9 foot to give u guys a size reference. He's about two and a half of my foot with his head out

 

[Tom]

Your diet, enclosure and night box all sound fine to me. I would just trade the CHE for an oil-heater.

I'm still trying to visualize your shaft idea. Gotta go back and re-read that a few times.