Scientific Inferences/Hypotheses on Pyramiding
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Will, I love the way you have presented the info in your last post. All of those things ARE worthy of some consideration. I do not have your knowledge or experience with wild torts and I appreciate you sharing this insight with us. [end of comments specifically to Will.]
To all, Here are some things that I have shared in the past, but bear repeating in light of this current discussion.
1. My current adults, and all the previous ones too, (sulcatas AND leopards) were all raised dry, as was recommended by all the books, breeders and "experts" of the day, back in the 90's. They all pyramided. We are talking about a dozen animals and their pyramiding was suprisingly consistent over about a ten year period. Knowing what I know now, the consitency of their pyramiding is not a surprise. I tired various housing and feeding regimes, but all were housed dry, since that is what was assumed that sulcatas (and leopards) needed back then. Their direct offspring were raised humid and hydrated. Damp substrates, covered tops, daily soaks and shell spraying. Even though these are the direct offspring of moderately pyramided adults, they are smooth. Their diets, temps and enclosures were all very similar. The one factor that was dramatically changed was the "wet" factor. This, along with many other similar observations all over the world, is why I believe that genetics only plays a minimal role, if any.
2. Diet. I know a man in south Florida who proudly showed me pics of his super smooth large sulcatas. He raised them entirely outdoors in his back yard. He found it amusing that they had learned to climb up onto the low back porch and eat all the cat food out of the bowl. They had been doing this daily for nearly their whole lives. They also ate whatever weeds and grass grew in their back yard, but he really didn't feed them. They were approximately 80 pounds at 5-6 years old. If you didn't know better, you would swear they were wild caught and at least 10 years old. Again, I have observed similar dietary atrocities with the results dependent upon the environment in which the tortoise were raised. Feed them cat food in Southern CA or AZ, and you get a horribly malformed, pyramided mess. Feed them cat food in the south Florida or Louisiana rain, warmth and humidity, and you get large, but smooth tortoises. Mind you, I am NOT advocating what is clearly a bad diet, I am just pointing out that even on a diet that any reasonable tortoises keeper would assess as "bad" the tortoises still grew smooth and looked like their wild counterparts.
On the other side of this same coin, I raised my current adults on an excellent diet and fed small quantities, even skipping days occasionally, based on the advice of the day which was that, "too much nutrition, is just as bad as the wrong nutrition". My current adults ate mostly grasses and weeds, almost no grocery store greens, a fair amount of cactus, all in reasonable small quantities. They were always hungry, but I was attempting to simulate what I was told happens in the wild. Of course I kept them dry, since I was told they were a "desert" species that came from dry arid regions just South of the Sahara desert. They grew very slowly. They are now 14.5 years old and just barely 70 pounds for my two males, and 40 pounds for my female who is one year younger. Most of that growth is in the last three years, since I started feeding the, a more reasonable diet. I have produced "mini" sulcatas, if you will, for all my efforts. As anyone can see from the pics I have posted, they are quite pyramided. As Will pointed out, this COULD have something to do with the nutrient content of the food I fed them. My question then is: Why are their offspring, who were started in the same exact enclosures, on the same ranch, fed the same foods that grew in the same weed patches, drank the same water, NOT pyramided? The only variable that changed from 1998 when the great Walter Allen gave me Scooter and Bert, to 2010 when I finally bred Scooter and Bert, is the water management strategies that I have employed with their offspring.
I don't have documented lab studies to prove what I assert. I only my have short lifetime of personal experiences and observations. There IS the Austrian study of 2003 the DID prove that protein does NOT cause pyramiding, and that humidity DOES prevent it...
To all, Here are some things that I have shared in the past, but bear repeating in light of this current discussion.
1. My current adults, and all the previous ones too, (sulcatas AND leopards) were all raised dry, as was recommended by all the books, breeders and "experts" of the day, back in the 90's. They all pyramided. We are talking about a dozen animals and their pyramiding was suprisingly consistent over about a ten year period. Knowing what I know now, the consitency of their pyramiding is not a surprise. I tired various housing and feeding regimes, but all were housed dry, since that is what was assumed that sulcatas (and leopards) needed back then. Their direct offspring were raised humid and hydrated. Damp substrates, covered tops, daily soaks and shell spraying. Even though these are the direct offspring of moderately pyramided adults, they are smooth. Their diets, temps and enclosures were all very similar. The one factor that was dramatically changed was the "wet" factor. This, along with many other similar observations all over the world, is why I believe that genetics only plays a minimal role, if any.
2. Diet. I know a man in south Florida who proudly showed me pics of his super smooth large sulcatas. He raised them entirely outdoors in his back yard. He found it amusing that they had learned to climb up onto the low back porch and eat all the cat food out of the bowl. They had been doing this daily for nearly their whole lives. They also ate whatever weeds and grass grew in their back yard, but he really didn't feed them. They were approximately 80 pounds at 5-6 years old. If you didn't know better, you would swear they were wild caught and at least 10 years old. Again, I have observed similar dietary atrocities with the results dependent upon the environment in which the tortoise were raised. Feed them cat food in Southern CA or AZ, and you get a horribly malformed, pyramided mess. Feed them cat food in the south Florida or Louisiana rain, warmth and humidity, and you get large, but smooth tortoises. Mind you, I am NOT advocating what is clearly a bad diet, I am just pointing out that even on a diet that any reasonable tortoises keeper would assess as "bad" the tortoises still grew smooth and looked like their wild counterparts.
On the other side of this same coin, I raised my current adults on an excellent diet and fed small quantities, even skipping days occasionally, based on the advice of the day which was that, "too much nutrition, is just as bad as the wrong nutrition". My current adults ate mostly grasses and weeds, almost no grocery store greens, a fair amount of cactus, all in reasonable small quantities. They were always hungry, but I was attempting to simulate what I was told happens in the wild. Of course I kept them dry, since I was told they were a "desert" species that came from dry arid regions just South of the Sahara desert. They grew very slowly. They are now 14.5 years old and just barely 70 pounds for my two males, and 40 pounds for my female who is one year younger. Most of that growth is in the last three years, since I started feeding the, a more reasonable diet. I have produced "mini" sulcatas, if you will, for all my efforts. As anyone can see from the pics I have posted, they are quite pyramided. As Will pointed out, this COULD have something to do with the nutrient content of the food I fed them. My question then is: Why are their offspring, who were started in the same exact enclosures, on the same ranch, fed the same foods that grew in the same weed patches, drank the same water, NOT pyramided? The only variable that changed from 1998 when the great Walter Allen gave me Scooter and Bert, to 2010 when I finally bred Scooter and Bert, is the water management strategies that I have employed with their offspring.
I don't have documented lab studies to prove what I assert. I only my have short lifetime of personal experiences and observations. There IS the Austrian study of 2003 the DID prove that protein does NOT cause pyramiding, and that humidity DOES prevent it...
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Tom said:
Tom, is this something handy where you could offer a more specific reference for. Even the primary author would help. Thanks.
Will
I tried to look it up and post it for you, but the link is no longer there. I apologize. I have a very weak 3G wireless signal here, so it might just be that is is not popping up for me. It was on the sulcatastation.org website. There is now only a summary of the results, but the summary is followed by the correct citations. I tried to link it here for you, but my weak signal is not cooperating. You'll have to go to the ss website, click on the highlighted link that says "What causes pyramiding.", and the summary is a few scrolls down the page.
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf
Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)
Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)
Thank you Neal.
Will, given your background, I would love to hear your thoughts on this study. It seems valid to my untrained (scientifically speaking) eye, but Andy Highfield called it "flawed" and referred to the humidity thing as "a red herring", at one point.
Will, given your background, I would love to hear your thoughts on this study. It seems valid to my untrained (scientifically speaking) eye, but Andy Highfield called it "flawed" and referred to the humidity thing as "a red herring", at one point.
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Tom said:
Got it . . .
Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003.
Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata).
J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74.
and now so does everyone else.
View attachment Wiesner - 2003.pdf
Will
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Tom said:
I agree with Tom, its the humidity and its food that cause the pyramid..
Too much proteint I think can cause pyramid too, such as beans, or even dog food or cat food..
For my experience, good diet, with correct food and great enclosure(place) with humidity more than 60-70% can make tort growth smoothly..
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