Hi there, new russian tortoise hatchling keeper

[tortoisenerd]

I got a cb male russian tortoise last week. His name is Trevor. He's about 2 inches SCL and very cute! 34 grams when I got him and he's gained 1g in a week. He was constipated when I got him though, but I think he's on a good track now as he's gone two days in a row. Haven't seen any urates yet, and have soaked him three times (does that mean I can assumed he's hydrated?). We're still working on getting everything exactly perfect for him, but he's healthy (took him to the vet yesterday), eating, and looks happy. I'm growing some russian tortoise seeds and dandelion for him, and have organic greens from the supermarket such as kale, spring mix, collard greens, and mustard greens. I'm trying to get him to eat a little timothy hay by chopping it up and putting it over the greens (he has it for hiding), and have ordered some Mazuri to put a little in his diet for variety. He has calcium powder and Total Nutrition for Tortoises as well.

We built a tortoise table for him...it's a little big but has plenty of room to grow. We may block part of it off, but are still deciding. We also plan to put some holes in the sides to improve ventilation. We live in Western Washington where it's rather damp and cool. We originally had him on 50/50 eco earth and sand, but it wasn't keeping him warm enough, as well as it not being the best for us to watch his droppings and keep him clean (he had bits of coconut fiber stuck in him). The vet recommended keeping him on newspaper or paper towels for the first few years as he just needs his basic needs met like heat, shelter, and food.

We also have a ceramic heat emitter on order because we've noticed he likes to be very warm--higher than what the care sheets have said. We have his basking about 95 right now and he likes his hide right to the side of it (high 80s). I'm so happy we finally got his enclosure up in temperature--it was really tough here and near to impossible with the damp substrate--we have the house heat up in the meantime until the ceramic heat emitter arrives.

Here are pictures of him and his enclosure:

http://i39.tinypic.com/9bkf35.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/zyfqe1.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/x0wdjm.jpg

Since we have him on the newspaper and hay now (he's much more active because that upped the temperatures for him, and he's eating more), I am thinking about humidity a little. Is about 30-40% ok? Any ideas for creating a humid hide/area?

In the future I want to at least have a digging box for him, like a litter pan with a side cut out and soil, but I don't want him to burrow down and try to hibernate right now, and that area will be damp/cold so I at least want to wait until we have the heat emitter.

He has the water dish and I actually saw him get in yesterday and take a drink (also soak him 2-3 times a week for now) so I know it's not too big for him. The rocks are just a trial to see if he might enjoy some climbing (I know with the newspaper we may need to challenge his muscles a little more).

Any comments or suggestions? Just trying to make him the best home I can. He's hanging out in the warm area right now and really likes his box in the warm area because he didn't have that at first. Thanks!

 

[tortoisenerd]

I have a couple follow-up questions about his habitat:

I want to create an area for him to dig (right now he's scratching the walls inside his box, warm hide). I was thinking a pile of aspen shaving substrate, away from his food, and have it be semi-warm, once I get the ceramic heat emitter. He likes to stay in the warm area of the enclosure and feel really safe. I don't think with just the hay he's able to get enough of it around him. I do really like that his floor-level is not damp anymore. The lighter color would be better so I can see when he soils it. Would this be appropriate?

I did add a wet sponge to one of his drier hides so it can add some humidity. We also have moister air here in Washington so it's not as much of an issue (creating humidity). I'll look for one of the plastic huts so I can put the sponge on the top of it and some bedding to burrow in....it just pains me to hear the little guy scraping at cardboard.

 

[Yvonne G]

Your habitat is a nice size for your tortoise. They require quite a bit of exercise in order to grow right, so having the sleeping area on one side and feeding him on the other end is good. I'm not that fond of newspaper for substrate. Seems to me like they would not have good footing and might tend to slip...bad for the legs of a growing baby. Also, Russians don't eat that much hay. They tend to go for the broad-leaf weeds and ground covers. So I doubt he'll eat the hay, even if you chop it up for him. I notice in my Russian pen that they will eat the young grasses as it first comes up out of the ground, but after it gets to be over an inch tall, they don't eat it anymore.

Enjoy your time with Trevor. He's a very nice-looking baby Russian.

Yvonne

 

[Jacqui]

A lot of folks do like using the aspen bedding and seem to have good luck with it. Just be sure you have a humid area for him, if he wants it.

Seeing the rocks reminds me to mention to watch that your little guy can right himself if he falls off and onto his back. Some babies seem to have trouble getting the hang of righting themselves.

Like I said elsewhere, really like your little fella.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Thanks!

I wanted to see if he'll touch the rocks (I was here all day with him), and he didn't. So, out they go. I'm trying to be creative with things for him to explore and keep his attention. It's great to see him more active then when we first got him, now that he's warmed up.

I tried creating a humid area with a sponge but I think I need more of an enclosed space like a plastic "igloo" like I saw on another thread here. Humidity is still doing pretty well all things considered. Maybe I'll find a safe plant to put in there too.

And, I'll be adding an area of aspen bedding because he's been scratching away at his cardboard house--poor little guy likes to dig, but the old substrate was just too cold.

I don't think he's eaten the hay--but I heard it's good for their fiber intake. At least he likes to play in it. He was crazy today about what I think is chia growing from seed mix.

He seemed to be getting around great on the newspaper. The bedding addition will help with the leg muscles too. I'd also like to take him outside but I think it'll be another 4 months at least.

 

[Jacqui]

Be sure to keep trying the rocks, when you can have some supervision time to see how he handles it. They need to experience things like they find in the real world and learn to overcome them...like learning to climb and right themselves if they fall.

Sounds like he would be a good candidate for growing some seeds to eat. I have some that ignore things that sprout up, course normally not the piggy Russians...lol.

Is it warm enough where you live to be taking him outside even? Little playtimes, closely watched in a safe area, can be enjoyable for both of you.

 

[tortoisenerd]

It's 15 or 20 degrees out right now but once Spring hits I hope to take him for a "walk".

 

[Crazy1]

Your little Russian is adorable. Chia is a favorite of some torts. If you decide you want more traction you can use turtle carpet in grey or brown they sell it all over and it's pretty inexpensive at E-bay. My Hatchling Greeks love it. It gives them traction and is easy to spot clean and clean up. And sometimes they play hide and seek with me under the carpet. I also use shredded aspen or sphargunm moss if you want a damper area.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I'm going out this weekend to get some shreaded Aspen as it sounds like a solution to a couple of problems:
-he loves loves loves digging and burrowing; right now he's scratching at the bottom of his cardboard hide box trying to burrow into something
-it won't be so damp (we're having trouble keeping his enclosure warm enough as he actually likes it hotter than any care sheet I've read)
-shouldn't get caught on him (he was getting bits of coconut fiber stuck and that can be dangerous around his neck and legs)

Thanks for the carpet idea. I think he's doing good in the traction department as he can get around pretty fast (and he's also climbing on hay and rocks), but I'll keep it in mind. He likes hiding between the newspaper layers too. We have thick plastic sheeting below the substrate to protect the wood of the box so it's fine if he's under the newspaper.

I'll be getting him a little igloo to create a humid area since I know with the drier substrate he needs that for proper shell growth.

Could there be a reason besides wanting to dig/burrow that he's scratching at the cardboard in his hide box? I assume he doesn't understand it's a solid surface and he's not going anywhere. The box is in the warm area, but also goes into a cooler area--I've seen him in both sides of it. The box has hay which he's been surrounded with at times. He has two hides in cooler areas as well so I hope he's not trying to get "out" of the box to the cooler area. He's basically been staying in the warm area besides a few expeditions to retreat to the shade or water. I imagine he's getting used to his enclosure again since we switched it up on him.

He really loves the chia--is it ok to be a major staple in his diet (or is it a treat food)? I'm not sure on the nutritional value of it...

 

[Crazy1]

Tortoisenerd, I am a strong believer in variety for desert type torts like Russians, Greeks, DT, etc.. I think it is not only beneficial to the tort but it keeps them from becoming picky eaters. So I vote keep a nice variety if you can. A little chia, a little spring mix, rose petals, grape leaves, clover, endive, radicchio, escarole, dandelion, you name it. Most of my winter greens for my torts (Greeks) are my greens as well. Funny how torts are what got me eating more greens.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I agree on the variety. I just wanted to check that it was on the same nutritional level as some of the greens, weeds, and flowers (and not closer to a treat food like fruit). So far I've thrown out more greens than he's eaten. I've been shopping around though to find places that sell loose greens buy the pound (very cheap for a hatchling!), or are things that are good for him and we'll also eat (like spring mix). We tried to make a collard greens and mustard greens salad but it wasn't as tasty as Trevor made it look.

Hoping I can get more than Chia to grow out of my seeds in the middle of winter. Supposedly they should all be sprouting by 2 weeks, which is coming up in a few days. Might have to wait until spring.

Another note: My fiance is now against using anything other than the newspaper. He heard the vet say that as he went with me, but he has not done the extensive research I have. My thinks having even a corner of the enclosure with aspen shavings for him to burrow will be unsanitary. I was for switching to newspaper because of the cold/damp issue more than it being more sanitary (not sticking to him and easier to see messes). Any ideas for how to convince him? I hate hearing Trevor scratching trying to dig. I even showed him a picture of what the bedding looks like in a tortoise enclosure.

 

[egyptiandan]

You'll just have to explain that newspaper gives no traction to a young growing tortoise. I've seen quite a few hatchlings in my time that were raised on newspaper and had very splayed legs and had even started to walk on their knees. It's really not good for hatchlings.
I've never had a problem with aspen in almost 20 years of using it. All my hatchlings love to dig in it. It's just as sanitary as any substrate you can use.

Danny

 

[Yvonne G]

Could there be a reason besides wanting to dig/burrow that he's scratching at the cardboard in his hide box? I assume he doesn't understand it's a solid surface and he's not going anywhere.

I'm in partnership on all my tortoises with a guy who lives in Philladelphia, and this guy, William, is visiting me for the past couple weeks, along with his dad. William and his dad were in the kitchen talking last week when Tony the sulcata arrived from my sister, and the box containing Tony was sitting on the floor near them. It was night time and Tony was scratching and digging in the corner of the box. Finally William's dad asked what the heck that tortoise was doing, and William had a great explanation, which I'll pass along here:

When burrowing tortoises get ready to go to sleep at night, they go down deep into the burrow, to the end, and scrape and dig until they are wedged in. This makes them feel safe, as they can feel the tightness of the burrow all around them. In this manner, they feel its safe to go to sleep and not have to be "on guard."

Yvonne

 

[tortoisenerd]

That sounds like a pretty good explanation! Kinda like a dog turning around before they lie down to sleep? I think he likes the bedding all around him for the safety--hopefully he'll enjoy the aspen bedding added tomorrow when we clean everything out while he's in the bath. He doesn't like when I move anything around in his enclosure when he's in it. I think we'll try it for a burrowing area first and see how it goes--I think my fiance thinks anything the vet says has to be followed 100%--I am more of the opinion to collect information and try things and see what works. The damp substrate isn't for us right now, so we'll try aspen next.

He's had a few hay piles all along so he's had traction and been climbing around on and under it.

 

[Kristina]

In my experience MOST veterinarians are not that knowledgable about reptiles. It takes a specially trained or interested vet to be able to care for them.

I believe that www.anapsid.com has a list of herp vets. Also, I recently corresponded by email with Dr. Mader of Marathon Veterinary Hospital. Dr. Mader is a graduate of UC Davis and is the consulting veterinarian for the Key West Aquarium and the Marathon Sea Turtle Hospital and is the author/editor of the Saunder's publication Reptile Medicine and Surgery. He answered my questions promptly and was very helpful. Perhaps you could ask him his opinion. http://www.marathonvethospital.com/veterinarians.htm

It is my opinion, as others have voiced, that you are looking for trouble with the newspaper. There is so much possibility for joint, bone and muscle deformity with such a slick surface. Tortoises EAT feces... Both their own, other tortoises and other animals. It is a natural thing. I think that the physical well being of the hatchling is much more at stake than any health problems that the supposed unsanitary conditions of other substrates could cause.

Kristina

 

[tortoisenerd]

The vet we consulted with is a herp vet recommended by a local society. We are however not taking the opinion exclusively, and are trying out some aspen bedding with him tomorrow. I at least agreed that the coconut fiber and sand substrate was not a good option for us right now.

Would he have been able to eat his feces with no trace? That would be interesting. I'm more perplexed about the no pooping or peeing when soaked, as I've heard that it's almost automatic.

 

[Kristina]

I am not sure... And I have not kept Russians myself, so I do not know about them automatically eliminating when soaked. I know that my Sulcatas do not.

You could perhaps try a TINY bit of either grated or pureed pumpkin (if you must use canned, make sure that it is PURE pumpkin, with no additives, perhaps from a natural food store.) It is not a food that normally should be fed, but can act as a natural laxative. If there is an impaction starting it may get things moving.

Kristina

 

[tortoisenerd]

He pooped today! He was up and about early, I gave him a long soak, then he ate a bit, basked, and pooped, then ate more, and is now napping in a hide. I think he's doing better. =)

He sniffed at the pile of aspen and climbed around on it but didn't burrow yet.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Another update:

I've put the aspen in most of his enclosure (kept it totally away from the food and water). He wasn't too happy after bath time today to come back to everything changed up again and hid in his box. He does like it as I've seen him do his superman pose basking on it, and digging under a little in his humid hide. I did realize that I got the chunky stuff in the small animal section and next time I'll order online for cheaper the shavings (aspen snake bedding), as that might be a little easier. I totally love it so far because it's easy to spot his messes (he's been regular in every department now, especially with a little cactus).

He's been active and getting very friendly. If you approach him slowly with your hand he won't curl back into his shell at all. I've taken pictures everyday of him doing cute stuff so I'll have to post soon.