Failure to Thrive

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pdelpizzo

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I've had 2 russian torts for about 2 years and one of them has definitely not been thriving. They were both very young when I bought them, weighing about 45 grams. Now one is 308 grams and a picture of good health while the other is 90 grams and very lethargic.

The smaller tortoise has had numerous issues, many of which I've discussed in this forum, but I'll give you a quick background. For starters, he's very picky about what he'll eat, preferring spring mix salad and rarely eating anything else I try to mix in. He does sometimes eat turnip greens and grape leaves when I have them. I believe a combination of bad parasites (resolved last spring) and bullying by his ultimately much larger brother, prevented him from eating enough food in general for a while. The two have been separated since february but he's still very lethargic and sleeps a lot, sometimes not getting up at all during the course of the day. He perks up a bit when he's outside, which is about 8-10 hours a week.

He also rubs his eyes often and is reluctant to open them much of the time. I had him at the vet recently for a total physical which included a 3 angle Xray and a broad fecal, blood, and liver function test. The vet said there were no obvious problems but thought he mainly just needed to eat healthier. He also didn't notice any type of eye infection. He recommended I get the tort to eat mazuri and more dark greens. I've tried working softened mazuri pellets into his diet but he refuses to eat them. I'm now grinding them up and sprinkling on his food. I'm also using the TNT powder from Carolina Pet Supply. I'm wondering if the eye issue is a vitamin A deficiency. Any ideas? I've read about people bathing torts in a carrot baby food/water solution. maybe I should give that a try. He does get soaked at least 4 days a week.

I've seen some liquid vitamin supplements with a syringe to apply directly to the animals mouth. Does anyone have any experience using these?

Because I know someone will ask, he's kept in a plastic tub with coconut bark bedding. There's a 100W UVB Zoo Med Powersun bulb with a basking temp in the low 90s and a cool side in the 70s during the day.

I'm trying my best to trick him into eating healthier things but I don't know if it's enough. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Patrick Del Pizzo
San Diego
 

dmmj

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It sounds like he is being bullied, russians don't often do well in a pair setting like that. I would separate them and see if that improves things, a Vit. a problem is possible but I don't think it is likely.
 

Yvonne G

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Since he seems to perk up when outside, can't you fix him up a safe and secure outdoor habitat?
 

pdelpizzo

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dmmj said:
It sounds like he is being bullied, russians don't often do well in a pair setting like that. I would separate them and see if that improves things, a Vit. a problem is possible but I don't think it is likely.

They have been separated for the last 4 months. He doesn't have to compete anymore but he's still reluctant to eat much of anything healthy.

emysemys said:
Since he seems to perk up when outside, can't you fix him up a safe and secure outdoor habitat?

I'm working on the outdoor enclosure on my balcony and should be able to get him out there soon. I have a planter box and I'm growing some things from the Carolina Pet Supply Russian tortoise seed mix to plant in there. I just have to build the cage top to attach which I'm doing this weekend (just cut all the wood pieces yesterday). I just wonder if I need a faster solution to get him healthy.

Liquid vitamin solutions?
 

ascott

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I must say...four months is not a long time :D..especially since it is apparent that you have a tort that is a perfect example of what can happen when a pair is present and one bullies the other...I don't believe you have a failure to thrive...but rather a tough little survivor...

I have two RFs that came last year in September....I gave them maybe two or three days of observing their behavior before I set up each in their own enclosure...they had been together and the stronger one absolutely bullied the other...the point to my ramble is...the weaker one took comfortably 6 months before acting like a tortoise vs a whipping post, so to speak.

Even now she is still a little unsure and her vision absolutely is still poor and she will shy away if messed with too much...so time time time is what is necessary....make sure that the enclosure is set up comfortably and offer a routine and sit back and be patient...

The bully tort was simply doing as they are designed to do....seek out the best food...sleeping spot...warming/basking spot...watering spot...and when pairs are set up that harmony is near impossible to reach....one will usually be the one who becomes withdrawn...stops gasping...stops showing interest in food..stood soaking/drinking and will generally hide out and the bully will seek them out and will ram...bite...and stomp and climb all on top of the weaker one...

Now you are in the wait and see .....also, I would soak the weaker one in a carrot baby food soak each day and would do this each day for at least a week....also, another great food to aid in eye improvement is avocado and squash...remember I only suggest these because the eyes are a window to a torts over all health and if the tort has weak eyes at presented I would offer a bit of these two treat foods ....and I also would make sure that the weaker tort can easily locate the food...if the eyesight is poor then the appetite goes down...perhaps hand feed for a bit to make sure the amount of food you want him to consume will be eaten....and regular eating right now is better than huge amounts being eaten as a goal...slow, steady and patients is the way of the tort...so allow them to do their own pace...however, if when you feed the tort is hiding...get him out into the warmth...soak him and then offer food...then more sun time....may we see a pic of the weaker one please?:D
 

pdelpizzo

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ascott said:
I must say...four months is not a long time :D..especially since it is apparent that you have a tort that is a perfect example of what can happen when a pair is present and one bullies the other...I don't believe you have a failure to thrive...but rather a tough little survivor...

I have two RFs that came last year in September....I gave them maybe two or three days of observing their behavior before I set up each in their own enclosure...they had been together and the stronger one absolutely bullied the other...the point to my ramble is...the weaker one took comfortably 6 months before acting like a tortoise vs a whipping post, so to speak.

Even now she is still a little unsure and her vision absolutely is still poor and she will shy away if messed with too much...so time time time is what is necessary....make sure that the enclosure is set up comfortably and offer a routine and sit back and be patient...

The bully tort was simply doing as they are designed to do....seek out the best food...sleeping spot...warming/basking spot...watering spot...and when pairs are set up that harmony is near impossible to reach....one will usually be the one who becomes withdrawn...stops gasping...stops showing interest in food..stood soaking/drinking and will generally hide out and the bully will seek them out and will ram...bite...and stomp and climb all on top of the weaker one...

Now you are in the wait and see .....also, I would soak the weaker one in a carrot baby food soak each day and would do this each day for at least a week....also, another great food to aid in eye improvement is avocado and squash...remember I only suggest these because the eyes are a window to a torts over all health and if the tort has weak eyes at presented I would offer a bit of these two treat foods ....and I also would make sure that the weaker tort can easily locate the food...if the eyesight is poor then the appetite goes down...perhaps hand feed for a bit to make sure the amount of food you want him to consume will be eaten....and regular eating right now is better than huge amounts being eaten as a goal...slow, steady and patients is the way of the tort...so allow them to do their own pace...however, if when you feed the tort is hiding...get him out into the warmth...soak him and then offer food...then more sun time....may we see a pic of the weaker one please?:D

Thank you for the great information! I will take a photo tomorrow and post for you to see.
 

Sky2Mina

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Keep us updated! Hope she'll gain weight soon. 90 grams is nothing :eek:
 

pdelpizzo

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Here are some pictures of the little guy marinating in his carrot bath, struggling to get out of my hand after rinsing off, and then checking out some greens in his enclosure.


2012-06-08_14-53-08_3.jpg


2012-06-08_15-04-15_592.jpg


2012-06-08_15-37-27_23.jpg
 

Laura

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have you tried Spring Mix with the red lettuce in it? Sometimes color will entice them to eat. Also, look for butternut squash. a few cubes of that might help. a small amount of crated carrot over greens.. And I'd also make the pieces of greens smaller just to make it easier for him. Mine loves clover and the flowers.. try that too.
:)
 

pdelpizzo

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Laura said:
have you tried Spring Mix with the red lettuce in it? Sometimes color will entice them to eat. Also, look for butternut squash. a few cubes of that might help. a small amount of crated carrot over greens.. And I'd also make the pieces of greens smaller just to make it easier for him. Mine loves clover and the flowers.. try that too.
:)

Spring mix is actually all he really eats. Both the red and green lettuce. I'm trying to get him to eat more greens, in this case turnip because he has shown some interest before. The vet has told me to get him away from spring mix because it isn't providing any benefit nutritionally. I'm trying to slowly wean him off. With the vision issues, he seems to have better luck keying in on the larger pieces.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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pdelpizzo said:
I've had 2 russian torts for about 2 years and one of them has definitely not been thriving. They were both very young when I bought them, weighing about 45 grams. Now one is 308 grams and a picture of good health while the other is 90 grams and very lethargic.

The smaller tortoise has had numerous issues, many of which I've discussed in this forum, but I'll give you a quick background. For starters, he's very picky about what he'll eat, preferring spring mix salad and rarely eating anything else I try to mix in. He does sometimes eat turnip greens and grape leaves when I have them. I believe a combination of bad parasites (resolved last spring) and bullying by his ultimately much larger brother, prevented him from eating enough food in general for a while. The two have been separated since february but he's still very lethargic and sleeps a lot, sometimes not getting up at all during the course of the day. He perks up a bit when he's outside, which is about 8-10 hours a week.

He also rubs his eyes often and is reluctant to open them much of the time. I had him at the vet recently for a total physical which included a 3 angle Xray and a broad fecal, blood, and liver function test. The vet said there were no obvious problems but thought he mainly just needed to eat healthier. He also didn't notice any type of eye infection. He recommended I get the tort to eat mazuri and more dark greens. I've tried working softened mazuri pellets into his diet but he refuses to eat them. I'm now grinding them up and sprinkling on his food. I'm also using the TNT powder from Carolina Pet Supply. I'm wondering if the eye issue is a vitamin A deficiency. Any ideas? I've read about people bathing torts in a carrot baby food/water solution. maybe I should give that a try. He does get soaked at least 4 days a week.

I've seen some liquid vitamin supplements with a syringe to apply directly to the animals mouth. Does anyone have any experience using these?

Because I know someone will ask, he's kept in a plastic tub with coconut bark bedding. There's a 100W UVB Zoo Med Powersun bulb with a basking temp in the low 90s and a cool side in the 70s during the day.

I'm trying my best to trick him into eating healthier things but I don't know if it's enough. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Patrick Del Pizzo
San Diego

Some suggestions:

(A) Offer him food outdoors, and, if possible, keep him outdoors as long as it's warm. Sunlight is MUCH better than any artificial light.

(B) Tortoises get VERY excited over red food, so offer him Mazuri that you've soaked in beet juice (health food store, if your local grocery doesn't carry any). If he'll go for that (most torts go nuts over it), mix it w/ very finely chopped dark green veggies/weeds, or with dried dark green veggies/weeds (I do this, myseld, for my torts during the winter, except I use Marion Red Stick Tortoise kibble - mine prefer it over Mazuri - which one of our fellow Forumites, Coastal, sells). Also, finely chopped cactus pads are a great source of calcium.

(C ) His basking spot really needs to be in the mid-90s to 100F...the little dude may not be getting warm enough.

(D) The carrot babyfood soaks are certainly a good isea, and daily isn't too often.
 
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