Interesting calcium fact for mee and mep owners

[algoroth1]

I have wondered how mee/ps get enough calcium and protein to develop smooth well - rounded shells and avoid health problems in the wild and in captivity. I know that Mikeh on this forum gives his mees nightcrawlers for protein and everyone gives their torts calcium supplements, mainly because we don't know precisely how to balance their diets and assure good growth. But supplements can also cause problems.
I know, through Vic Morgan and the studies he cites, that 68 per cent of mee/ps' diet in the wild is Alocacia plant. In searching for information about the makeup of Alocacia leaves, stems and roots, I came upon a study done out of Vietnam. They were trying to find cheaper ways to effectively feed and raise pigs using Alocacia plants that grow there. I was thrilled to read that the plants are loaded with protein as well as calcium. In fact, the scientists were trying to reduce the amount of calcium oxylate in the leaves because it caused"itching". Our torts don't have that reaction and I'm guessing that this food base is a major reason they can thrive on a nearly 100 percent vegetarian diet, i.e.they get all the protein and calcium needed from the Alocacia.
I'm also wondering if the problem we have with the "pine-coning" of the front leg scales may have something to do with the lack of an adequate supply of this special plant that is poisonous to most animals and humans!
I'm going to increase Alocacia to as close to seventy per cent of Ponce's diet (my mee that is now 2 years old) and see if there are changes in the pine coning.
If you already knew all of this please let me know and sorry for taking your time. If it's new to you I'd be interested in broadening the experiment with others, particularly if you've had any growth related issues with your mountain torts.
Thanks to all.

 

[Tom]

I know nothing about these issues, but thanks for sharing this info. I'm always looking to learn more.

 

[mikeh]

Great read but Alocacia rich diet does not prevent spur pine coning.
I have gathered some data from few people with mees.

A member with two adult mees raised from hatchlings that until very recently haven't seen alocacia plant. They have large picture perfect flat spurs on their front legs. Interestingly they are both moderately pyramided despite raised in Florida outdoors. Sweet potatoes/yams are good portion of their diet. I am not sure who the breeder was for these two.

Another member has a juvenile mee that has a slower growth. This tortoise is heavily fed on Alocacia leaves. It has a super smooth shell but exhibits typical pine coning of the spurs. This tort came from Vic Morgan.

Mine until last month have not seen Alocacia plant. Their spurs are unusually large but do not exhibit pine coning. Shells are smooth exhibiting slight "reversed" pyramiding or depression. This is due to very high moisture/humidity varied with moderate humidity/moisture. I do not know which breeder mine came from.

There are few more cases but I don't have enough background on the torts to share the info.

I have read that soil in typical rainforest would be calcium deficient. Calcium oxalate binds calcium and prohibits for the body to utilize it. It is recommended to not feed plants high in calcium oxalate to other species of tortoises. Perhaps in Manouria its utilized differently?

Manouria have thinner bones compared to other species. Perhaps their calcium intake is not required to be as high? When I place powdered calcium carbonate in their food dish they both eat it like its main course, go figure.

I am having hard time seeing how they do not ingest live protein in the wild,at least juveniles. Their instinct to go for live foods is overwhelming.

I think if enough data is collected the pine coning mystery can be solved.

 

[Millerlite]

Mine will eat worms early in the morning. They will pull them right out of the ground. I think in the wild they will eat protein anytime they are given a chance. Very interesting. My 5 are growing slow, but smooth, all 5 of mine are from Vic, they are from different adults tho in his group

Kyle

 

[dmmj]

Thanks for the info so far, will watch this thread.

 

[algoroth1]

Mikeh, Thanks for that input. The fact that your torts had smooth scales and that you give them worms is part of what got me thinking. If the protein is a factor, I thought the Alocacia heavy diet might account for it in the wild, since I believe those studies did not indicate significant consumption of worms or insects. It is interesting also that the Florida/humidity factor for good shell growth is only one factor which seems is not related to the pine - coning. (Ponce is proof.)
The absorption of calcium oxylate by mees is worthy of serious investigation though I wouldn't know where to start. Let's keep talking this out and maybe something will jump out at us on one or another of these issues. All the best.

 

[algoroth1]

Kyle, do your torts actually hunt worms? Really interesting if they do. Are they outdoors all the time? Thanks,
Ron

 

[Millerlite]

Kyle, do your torts actually hunt worms? Really interesting if they do. Are they outdoors all the time? Thanks,
Ron

You know I wouldn't call it hunting like my box turtles do. My box turtles will dig the top layer of diet to find worms. I. Have seen my mep find worms after I put on the sprinklers and or rain. The worms will come up and if they see them they will go for them. They so not dig tho to find them. Also see them eat snails in the enclosure, slugs that they find. They seem to enjoy it and finding the little treats I feel help them stay a tortoise lol. I rarely feed them protein my self. Also they go crazy for mushrooms. Most say don't let them eat them but mushrooms around here can come up over night, by the time I see them they are gone lol.

Kyle

 

[Millerlite]

I live in so. Cali. It can be very dry here. But I do turn on sprinklers for them on hot days or every other day to keep it more humid. I have two with fairly smooth shells, the others are not as smooth but not bad. Reverse pyramiding it is.

Kyle

 

[tortadise]

Try snails for calcium and protein it makes up largely a portions of natural and healthy diet in captivity. I've never heard of the pine come issues until I came here. Never seen it. You have to give these guys Adequete space and proper substrates loose enough to burrow or hide from heat or direct uva exposure. This typically happens in a lot cuora species that have very spiky marginal scutes. Studies done on them when too dry they flare up and stop pointing outward like they should. Now this study had shown very humid and wet conditions. But when a larger water area was added the animals utilized it more and almost showed partial aquatic behavior an the "pine coning" began disappearing. I use 2 40 gallon troughs that I fill change out constantly for the mountains. Also have mister system on daily when it's warm out. And spray them down with a hose every evening and morning when I water the bamboo in there enclosure. So really it's just a small change in husbandry of the enclosure that can remedy this. Colocasia is also a very good source I food and so is pothos. Taro(they favor the Brazilian or Bolivian giant elephant ears most) and banana trees. Lots of very moist but dense stock foods. And snails. I will gather them hunting snails when outside. Those smart bastards will leave a portion of food left over just knowing the snails will come out at night to eat the leftovers. So in the morning they will hunt the snails. It's very interesting because they will never leave anything left over. So it leads me to believe they do it on purpose to lure the snails out. Anyways yeah.

 

[algoroth1]

Thanks Tortadise. Do your mountain torts also eat the bamboo? I suppose I'll try the snail/worm protein option and see if my emys shows interest. He lives permanently out of doors now and I'm trying to make environmental and diet changes gradually. Since the rainy season has begun moisture is no issue.
Any thoughts on Vic's suggestion that pine -coning, which only appears in captivity, might also be due to overfeeding? That is that fat buildup pushes the scales (scutes?What is the proper terminology? ) up out of their proper flat alignment.
Cheers!

 

[tortadise]

They sometimes will eat newly sprouted leaves off the stock. But other than that not really. They don't like it much for food, but love the fallen dried leaves to burrow under and make nests with.

 

[emysbreeder]

Some comments on this thread, Alocasia, True, it was observed in a radio trans. study in Borneo and documented at 63%. A ranger told the Scientist who could not find any Me.e to look for Alocasia with bite marks in them and emys would be close by. They were and the study was on. Oxalate's are bad news and block calcium absorption. No one knows if Manouria is not effected by this. My captives like the stem and stock. Now think about this, if oxalate's irritate the gut , then maybe they kill parasites. (speculation). The front legs have scales not spurs. The spurs are between the back legs and tail. I believe the "pine coning" is from over feeding, that's all. It is the stretching of the hide. In Nature or if you watch them browsing in a well planted captive enclosure you will notice it is very labor intensive compared to eating a big plate of food. Snailes grubs ect. not frozen will result in a bad parasite called flukes. Very hard to spot in fecal exams and dont effect the animal for maybe a decade or two in some cases. They can attack the liver and heart. Treatment=Dronsit, a very nasty medicine. Interesting is the fact that so many people report emys eating worms. Mine never do even with an abundance of them in enclosure. I believe this to be a conditioning of feeding in which they are not fed this in the beginning. It does seem as if they would feed on this in nature as they emerge from the nest. Mine are just flat out scared of worms! Worms eat dirt. The dirt is full of their old feces. There is no such thing as reverse pyramiding. The dimpled in look of juvie emys is natural in their development of carapace scutes. How is it known that emys have thinner bones than other tortoises? Over all this was a good discussion and everyone seems to be watching their torts. closely. There is some good reliable information out there and a ton of internet trash. Vic

 

[tortadise]

Snails I agree can and do carry parasites, as do worms. However snails are easier to remedy this than worms. A good friend of mine feeds snails to his indotestudo. The regime utilized is to quarantine and feed clean bacteria ridding foods for 2-3 weeks, them fed to the animal. So approach with caution indeed if collected from the wild. I've never seen any issues with. My regime of snail feedings. After all I can't control the wild ecosystem I've established in Texas. That being said. The more arid, dryer conditions the less likely the snails hold chance for nasty bacterias. Anyways.

 

[bouaboua]

Good read, Great information. Thank you all.

 

[tortadise]

Here's a good breakdown back when doctors actually did research. On oxalates metabolism.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/26/10/1073.full.pdf

 

[algoroth1]

Thanks Tortadise! I'm reading it slowly. I can't digest scientific papers as fast as mees can digest Alocacia

 

[algoroth1]

Vic,
Great to get your input on this. I mentioned your position on pine coning in an earlier post. As I've moved our mee out of doors now into a larger enclosure in which he definitely roams around, it will be interesting to watch for any growth changes. He goes for the Alocacia almost as aggressively as he goes for Mazuri if I offer it. Haven't tested feeding worms and may now hold off doing so given the warnings about parasites. Also wish we knew more about what constitutes healthy quantities of food.
All the best. BTW, is the Daytona show the first or second weekend in August?
Thanks,
Ron

 

[emysbreeder]

Vic,
Great to get your input on this. I mentioned your position on pine coning in an earlier post. As I've moved our mee out of doors now into a larger enclosure in which he definitely roams around, it will be interesting to watch for any growth changes. He goes for the Alocacia almost as aggressively as he goes for Mazuri if I offer it. Haven't tested feeding worms and may now hold off doing so given the warnings about parasites. Also wish we knew more about what constitutes healthy quantities of food.
All the best. BTW, is the Daytona show the first or second weekend in August?
Thanks,
Ron

.......Hay Ron, Ill be there as a vender like the 24 years before! Come on by my table. I have other turtles like box and wood turtles and they eat worms all the time with no apparent harm. The "Nematodes" in snails is the one that might do some harm later and it takes a different worm med than most. So I de parasite mine as needed. I get snails in their pond water so I can expect them to inadvertently eat some, but I dont feed them outright, their poop smells bad enough without snails! Glad to her that your emys is doing so well. You'll love watching them outside with places to go and things to do. Vic

 

[emysbreeder]

Snails I agree can and do carry parasites, as do worms. However snails are easier to remedy this than worms. A good friend of mine feeds snails to his indotestudo. The regime utilized is to quarantine and feed clean bacteria ridding foods for 2-3 weeks, them fed to the animal. So approach with caution indeed if collected from the wild. I've never seen any issues with. My regime of snail feedings. After all I can't control the wild ecosystem I've established in Texas. That being said. The more arid, dryer conditions the less likely the snails hold chance for nasty bacterias. Anyways.

Well I was talking about a specific parasite, the Nematode not a bacteria. My emys are not kept arid but very humid like in Asia. There are good bacteria that is necessary for Hind gut fermenters, so I dont think I would want to give them anything that would disrupt it. You can re establish the Floria like you must do after any treatment with antibiotics. Vic