Hello and welcome. Sorry to hear about the death in the family.Hi everyone,
Wondered if I could get some advice.
The enclosure is a 8ft x 3ft table and she had access to the whole room, which is probably about 10ft x 10ft.Hello and welcome. Sorry to hear about the death in the family.
Bladder stones are caused by dehydration. They can be exacerbated by a diet too high in protein, dry substrate and the accompanying low humidity, and small enclosures that don't afford enough exercise. Extremely hot or cold temperatures that cause them to be more inactive and also contribute. Bladder stones are NOT caused by calcium supplements or feeding foods with oxalates or goiterogens.
So tell us about the size of the enclosure, the substrate, and your four temperatures. Warm side, cool side, basking area, and overnight low?
Very sorry you lost such a beautiful tortoise. I'm sure you are grief-stricken.I figured out how to add the x ray.
Here it is. And a picture of my sweetheart.
Thank you. I am heartbroken. She was eating dandelions I'd pick just the night before and she didn't look ill. I wish she'd shown me signs and I could have got her to a vet and maybe saved her.Very sorry you lost such a beautiful tortoise. I'm sure you are grief-stricken.
Unfortunately, I have no idea why or how that stone could have formed and grown to such a large size without the tortoise ever showing any symptoms.
Do you think you will get another one and try again? You should, because the growth on your tortoise was perfect with no signs of pyramiding at all.Thank you. I am heartbroken. She was eating dandelions I'd pick just the night before and she didn't look ill. I wish she'd shown me signs and I could have got her to a vet and maybe saved her.
I feel so guilty and I have felt sick since I found her. I'm finding it so hard.
My son is nearly 1 and I wanted them to grow up together and the weather is just getting nice to take her out. 💔
Thank you. Yes the vet said she was in such great condition otherwise. I'm proud of that, just a shame because with her growth and health other than the bladder stone she should have lived a long healthy life and I feel like I've unintentionally failed her. I'm finding it hard after having my son last year and knowing I haven't spent as much time with her as I used to.Do you think you will get another one and try again? You should, because the growth on your tortoise was perfect with no signs of pyramiding at all.
Are you sure the bladder stone was the COD? They can live with those for long periods of time, and the stone itself doesn't kill them. What kills them is the inability to pass feces ad bodily waste through the cloaca because of the large obstruction. On the occasion that that happens, there are signs of a problem for a long period of time. They stop eating, they stop defecating, they get lethargic, and often they start dragging their back legs or showing some inability to walk.The enclosure is a 8ft x 3ft table and she had access to the whole room, which is probably about 10ft x 10ft.
Warm side was usually 26-28c, basking 32c, cool side 20-22c, overnight about 20c.
We turned her soil over every few months with water to saturate it and I would spray the top each week.
If you do decide to try again, realize that most of the care info out in the world is all wrong. For decades we have all had the wrong idea. Vets, pet shops, breeders, etc... We've all been using and teaching the same wrong info for generations. Give this a read through and note the things that are different than what you were told previously:Thank you. Yes the vet said she was in such great condition otherwise. I'm proud of that, just a shame because with her growth and health other than the bladder stone she should have lived a long healthy life and I feel like I've unintentionally failed her. I'm finding it hard after having my son last year and knowing I haven't spent as much time with her as I used to.
I think we may get another one, I think me and my husband need to forgive ourselves first.
She was beautiful,and I don't think you have anything to forgive yourself for. These things happen, and there is another tortoise out there looking for a wonderful home with you and your little boy - please try again. Now you have this forum to help you, and there are people who know a huge amount about tortoise care to advise you - you are exactly the sort of loving tortoise carer that any little tortoise needs.Thank you. Yes the vet said she was in such great condition otherwise. I'm proud of that, just a shame because with her growth and health other than the bladder stone she should have lived a long healthy life and I feel like I've unintentionally failed her. I'm finding it hard after having my son last year and knowing I haven't spent as much time with her as I used to.
I think we may get another one, I think me and my husband need to forgive ourselves first.
Thank you.Are you sure the bladder stone was the COD? They can live with those for long periods of time, and the stone itself doesn't kill them. What kills them is the inability to pass feces ad bodily waste through the cloaca because of the large obstruction. On the occasion that that happens, there are signs of a problem for a long period of time. They stop eating, they stop defecating, they get lethargic, and often they start dragging their back legs or showing some inability to walk.
There are some mistakes in your husbandry that might be a contributor. I'm only pointing them out to be helpful and get you the answers you seek.
1. Basking area needs to be closer to 36-37C. Their immune and digestive systems can't function if they can't get warm enough. The rest of the temperatures seem fine for the species. Did you brumate the tortoise this winter?
2. Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate. It is made from all sort of weird ingredients and composted yard waste. Any number of toxic elements of foreign bodies can be found in store bought soil and it doesn't matter if the label says "organic" or "sterile" or anything else.
3. Loose in the room is often a death sentence in one of many ways. They eat things that they shouldn't, its too cold, they get kicked, stepped on and we had one a couple of years ago that got its head smashed in the door jamb.
4. You might have been giving a little bit too much calcium. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other important trace elements and nutrients. They should only get some a couple fo time per week. Every feeding is too much.
5. Overall, the foods you were feeding sound great. Adding some fiber and sprinkling a dried leaf or flower topper on top over winter would have been a good idea, but what you were doing was pretty good.
I do see another little spot in your X-ray other than the stone, and the tortoise could have swallowed any number of other things that wouldn't show on an x ray while down on the floor or from the soil substrate. I also see quite a bit of food piled up in the GI tract, but I don't know if that is an abnormal amount or not. The stone is obvious and that's where I'd point the finger too, but the lack of symptoms makes me think that this death might have been caused by something else even though there was a large bladder stone present. I've saved your X-ray photo and I'm going to show it to my tortoise vet friends and see if they see anything that I don't. They are much more experienced looking at x-rays than I am.
Sadly, FB and YT have become the main sources of torts info throughout the world, replacing forums like this one, and their info is dismal. Further, if someone comes along and tries to show evidence based facts that what they are saying is not true, or what works better, they get banned. It makes it very difficult for a person like yourself with the best of intentions to get the right information to work with.That's interesting to know about soil becuase I'm on a specific spur theighed Facebook group and they suggest it.
Thank you for your kind words. I really hope she had a good life.Sadly, FB and YT have become the main sources of torts info throughout the world, replacing forums like this one, and their info is dismal. Further, if someone comes along and tries to show evidence based facts that what they are saying is not true, or what works better, they get banned. It makes it very difficult for a person like yourself with the best of intentions to get the right information to work with.
Without a necropsy, we can only guess. Your level of care was better than 99% of the people out there, so both the stone and the unexpected death are quite surprising. As Zovick complemented, you did a wonderful job raising this tortoise. Far better than most. If you try again, regardless of what the COD was in this case, your tortoise did form a urolithic stone. Urates are the by-product of protein digestion. They collect and congeal in a tortoise that is not well hydrated enough. I too would have assumed the tortoise was drinking and staying hydrated judging from the soiled water dish daily, but there is just no substitute for frequent and regal soaks in a captive tortoise. It prevents problems like this. I normally recommend soaking adults like yours twice a week. More in hot dry weather or during times of increased protein intake like from a seasonal clover or broadleaf plantain patch.
It would be nice if there was an obvious mistake to point out and know the COD with certainty, but you did a fine job overall. With minor adjustments, I think you will enjoy longer term success if you try again in the future. Now your challenge will be to find a breeder that doesn't make any of the dozen or so common breeder mistakes...
"I normally recommend soaking adults like yours twice a week. More in hot dry weather or during times of increased protein intake like from a seasonal clover"Sadly, FB and YT have become the main sources of torts info throughout the world, replacing forums like this one, and their info is dismal. Further, if someone comes along and tries to show evidence based facts that what they are saying is not true, or what works better, they get banned. It makes it very difficult for a person like yourself with the best of intentions to get the right information to work with.
Without a necropsy, we can only guess. Your level of care was better than 99% of the people out there, so both the stone and the unexpected death are quite surprising. As Zovick complemented, you did a wonderful job raising this tortoise. Far better than most. If you try again, regardless of what the COD was in this case, your tortoise did form a urolithic stone. Urates are the by-product of protein digestion. They collect and congeal in a tortoise that is not well hydrated enough. I too would have assumed the tortoise was drinking and staying hydrated judging from the soiled water dish daily, but there is just no substitute for frequent and regal soaks in a captive tortoise. It prevents problems like this. I normally recommend soaking adults like yours twice a week. More in hot dry weather or during times of increased protein intake like from a seasonal clover or broadleaf plantain patch.
It would be nice if there was an obvious mistake to point out and know the COD with certainty, but you did a fine job overall. With minor adjustments, I think you will enjoy longer term success if you try again in the future. Now your challenge will be to find a breeder that doesn't make any of the dozen or so common breeder mistakes...
Are you sure the bladder stone was the COD? They can live with those for long periods of time, and the stone itself doesn't kill them. What kills them is the inability to pass feces ad bodily waste through the cloaca because of the large obstruction. On the occasion that that happens, there are signs of a problem for a long period of time. They stop eating, they stop defecating, they get lethargic, and often they start dragging their back legs or showing some inability to walk.
There are some mistakes in your husbandry that might be a contributor. I'm only pointing them out to be helpful and get you the answers you seek.
1. Basking area needs to be closer to 36-37C. Their immune and digestive systems can't function if they can't get warm enough. The rest of the temperatures seem fine for the species. Did you brumate the tortoise this winter?
2. Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate. It is made from all sort of weird ingredients and composted yard waste. Any number of toxic elements of foreign bodies can be found in store bought soil and it doesn't matter if the label says "organic" or "sterile" or anything else.
3. Loose in the room is often a death sentence in one of many ways. They eat things that they shouldn't, its too cold, they get kicked, stepped on and we had one a couple of years ago that got its head smashed in the door jamb.
4. You might have been giving a little bit too much calcium. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other important trace elements and nutrients. They should only get some a couple fo time per week. Every feeding is too much.
5. Overall, the foods you were feeding sound great. Adding some fiber and sprinkling a dried leaf or flower topper on top over winter would have been a good idea, but what you were doing was pretty good.
I do see another little spot in your X-ray other than the stone, and the tortoise could have swallowed any number of other things that wouldn't show on an x ray while down on the floor or from the soil substrate. I also see quite a bit of food piled up in the GI tract, but I don't know if that is an abnormal amount or not. The stone is obvious and that's where I'd point the finger too, but the lack of symptoms makes me think that this death might have been caused by something else even though there was a large bladder stone present. I've saved your X-ray photo and I'm going to show it to my tortoise vet friends and see if they see anything that I don't. They are much more experienced looking at x-rays than I am.