Will someone with a leopard tortosie with no pyramiding post a picture?

[Yvonne G]

Ok thanks. How can I get to the leopard page?

How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0

It's been three years since the original care sheet, http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-63788.html , and I think its time for a review and an update. A lot of new info has come to light over the last three years and new insight has been gained through numerous experiences. What follows is my...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[haydog_99]

@haydog_99 Your tortoise is pyramiding significantly. And combined with the extremely slow growth, I would really encourage you to revisit how your enclosure and care is currently compared to our care sheets here.

I live quite close to you and raise many tortoises in the exact conditions you have. I wrote this care sheet to explain a bit more for folks on raising what I refer to as "monsoon tortoises"

How to raise a Healthy Star Tortoise.

Stars, Leopards, and Sulcata tortoises are almost identical in care requirements, especially their first few years to get them started properly and thriving. These tortoises, their first few years, will fail to thrive and be active, unless you provide proper heat, humidity, and light. Leopard...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Please read that over, and see how and if there are any tweaks you can make to the setup for your tortoise.

It may also be that your tortoise was started from the beginning incorrectly by the breeder. Unfortunately this is more common and finding one who starts tortoises properly. Started too dry and with no food and daily soaks from the day they leave the egg, can often lead to a tortoise that appears OK, but will fail to grow properly. Yours has past the 60g mark, which shows it has started to grow. So the outlook is much better, but it will do so much better in "monsoon" type conditions.

Please read the linked thread I gave you above and come back with any and all quesions.

Mark

@haydog_99 Your tortoise is pyramiding significantly. And combined with the extremely slow growth, I would really encourage you to revisit how your enclosure and care is currently compared to our care sheets here.

I live quite close to you and raise many tortoises in the exact conditions you have. I wrote this care sheet to explain a bit more for folks on raising what I refer to as "monsoon tortoises"

How to raise a Healthy Star Tortoise.

Stars, Leopards, and Sulcata tortoises are almost identical in care requirements, especially their first few years to get them started properly and thriving. These tortoises, their first few years, will fail to thrive and be active, unless you provide proper heat, humidity, and light. Leopard...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Please read that over, and see how and if there are any tweaks you can make to the setup for your tortoise.

It may also be that your tortoise was started from the beginning incorrectly by the breeder. Unfortunately this is more common and finding one who starts tortoises properly. Started too dry and with no food and daily soaks from the day they leave the egg, can often lead to a tortoise that appears OK, but will fail to grow properly. Yours has past the 60g mark, which shows it has started to grow. So the outlook is much better, but it will do so much better in "monsoon" type conditions.

Please read the linked thread I gave you above and come back with any and all quesions.

Mark

Updated on Max's growth/shell growth from a March 11 and now on May 5th. he was moved into a closed chamber with humidity levels around 80%. March 11 he was 92 grams and today on May 6th he is 137 grams. He's not a big eater and has started to get very picky with eating his greens, when I got him he really didn't like the Mazuri tortoise food now that is all he wants to eat, some of the days he doesn't get Mazuri he ignores his greens. He won't even eat the Mazuri if it is mixed with greens, kind of a pain. But he is growing and I wanted to see what you think of the new shell growth.

 

[Markw84]

Updated on Max's growth/shell growth from a March 11 and now on May 5th. he was moved into a closed chamber with humidity levels around 80%. March 11 he was 92 grams and today on May 6th he is 137 grams. He's not a big eater and has started to get very picky with eating his greens, when I got him he really didn't like the Mazuri tortoise food now that is all he wants to eat, some of the days he doesn't get Mazuri he ignores his greens. He won't even eat the Mazuri if it is mixed with greens, kind of a pain. But he is growing and I wanted to see what you think of the new shell growth.

Great improvement! The new growth is looking very nice. Your changes are showing the results.

 

[haydog_99]

Great improvement! The new growth is looking very nice. Your changes are showing the results.

I was really worried about the hatchling death syndrome everyone talks about since he was so small and obviously he wasn't started correctly.

 

[solidsounds17]

I know there is a lot of conflicting info out there. The problem is everyone, including me, only had the books available on how to raise and care for tortoises and all the books said basically the same thing, but were written with incorrect conlclustions based on how they saw the "natural environment" of where the tortoises came from. We have learned so much since then for the tortoise keepers who are still open minded and wanting to learn and improve. Most, unfortunately are content with what they have been doing for years, and since it didn't kill the tortoise, they felt it worked. Most breeders don't see the damage done by these incorrect assumption with their hatchlings as they sell them and ship them to new homes and don't see the tortoise fail to survive or die in a few months. And if contacted, they blame the care at the new home.

I have not been satisfied with good enough. "Good enough" is the primary enemy of great! Just like many of the primary folks here on the forum, we are constantly questioning and sharing the best practices and go by results, not simply by what we've done for years! I was not satified raising a pyramided tortoise and was driven to find out how to raise a smooth, natural looking tortoise. Although considered cosmetic, pyramiding to me is a sign that conditions are not right, and just as the outside is growing deformed, so might be the insides.

Your substrate is good. IT is basically fir bark (orchid bark). It is what I recommend and use. But buy it from a garden center as fir bark/orchid bark and save 4-5 times the money as something marketed for reptiles. I buy at Green Acres and get the GreenAll Micro bark at $10 for 2 cu ft.

It is true that micro climates are necessary and how tortoises manage to survive in the wild. But in captivity, why not create the microclimate they are seeking with our enclosures? No need to create the other climates they are hiding from!

75° is too cool for a young tortoise. They do best closer to their optimal body temp which is in the mid 80°s. So I never let an enclosure drop below 80° in the coldest part day or night. I always keep humidity at 90% and the do much better as well. I believe plant cover is the natural hide and security for a tortoise as well as it creates the microclimate they seek - so they are conditioned to look for that type place.

Here's a picture of an enclosure I use for my baby stars. Followed by a picture I use for yearling stars. YOu have seen above a picture of a leopard I raised this way. I will add at the bottom a picture of a Burmese Star also that has been raised this way. Stars are at least as hard if not more so to raise without pyramiding unless conditions are perfect. I show this to allow you to judge the advice not by what I say, but the results it produces over, and over.

Please follow our care guidelines and you will see the difference in how your tortoise thrives and acts.

View attachment 287782
View attachment 287783
Here's a 10 month old Burmese Star...

View attachment 287785

And here's a 5 month old sulcata!

View attachment 287786

sup man, any links to the setup you have going there?

 

[Markw84]

sup man, any links to the setup you have going there?

If you are asking about the enclosures I use, I do build and sell them. If you are interested in information, email me and I can send you an information sheet on the Smart Enclosures.

[email protected]

 

[haydog_99]

Update, now 150 grams and better growth now that I have him in the right environment.

 

[Erik Elvis]

My PP is in an enclosed chamber and I try to keep humidity70-80% but he still has a touch of pyramiding.

 

[haydog_99]

@haydog_99 Your tortoise is pyramiding significantly. And combined with the extremely slow growth, I would really encourage you to revisit how your enclosure and care is currently compared to our care sheets here.

I live quite close to you and raise many tortoises in the exact conditions you have. I wrote this care sheet to explain a bit more for folks on raising what I refer to as "monsoon tortoises"

How to raise a Healthy Star Tortoise.

Stars, Leopards, and Sulcata tortoises are almost identical in care requirements, especially their first few years to get them started properly and thriving. These tortoises, their first few years, will fail to thrive and be active, unless you provide proper heat, humidity, and light. Leopard...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Please read that over, and see how and if there are any tweaks you can make to the setup for your tortoise.

It may also be that your tortoise was started from the beginning incorrectly by the breeder. Unfortunately this is more common and finding one who starts tortoises properly. Started too dry and with no food and daily soaks from the day they leave the egg, can often lead to a tortoise that appears OK, but will fail to grow properly. Yours has past the 60g mark, which shows it has started to grow. So the outlook is much better, but it will do so much better in "monsoon" type conditions.

Please read the linked thread I gave you above and come back with any and all quesions.

Mark

Mark, I have had Max since Feb 16th when he arrived he was 8 months and only 80 grams. I am sure that he wasn't started correctly and as you saw in the pictures he already had some pyramiding. I was worried I might have issues with hatchling failure syndrome with him, but after getting him setup in the right enclosure he seems to be doing fine. Yesterday he weighed 163 grams so he seems to be growing at a decent pace. My question is, when do you know you are definitely past issues caused by a questionable start at a young age? I've seen mention that it could be within a few weeks of receiving your tortoise or a few months after recieveing your tortoise. Thanks in advance.

 

[Markw84]

Mark, I have had Max since Feb 16th when he arrived he was 8 months and only 80 grams. I am sure that he wasn't started correctly and as you saw in the pictures he already had some pyramiding. I was worried I might have issues with hatchling failure syndrome with him, but after getting him setup in the right enclosure he seems to be doing fine. Yesterday he weighed 163 grams so he seems to be growing at a decent pace. My question is, when do you know you are definitely past issues caused by a questionable start at a young age? I've seen mention that it could be within a few weeks of receiving your tortoise or a few months after recieveing your tortoise. Thanks in advance.

You are definately past that stage. Once you see good consistent growth and past 100g it is enough to see the organs / metabolism is functioning properly. With what we refer to as hatchling failure, you normally don't see a leopard make it past 50g and a sulcata past 75g. They just stall there and don't gain weight. They even eat and act fairly normal, but they won't grow.

 

[haydog_99]

You are definately past that stage. Once you see good consistent growth and past 100g it is enough to see the organs / metabolism is functioning properly. With what we refer to as hatchling failure, you normally don't see a leopard make it past 50g and a sulcata past 75g. They just stall there and don't gain weight. They even eat and act fairly normal, but they won't grow.

Thanks for The clarification

 

[mads3732]

I know there is a lot of conflicting info out there. The problem is everyone, including me, only had the books available on how to raise and care for tortoises and all the books said basically the same thing, but were written with incorrect conlclustions based on how they saw the "natural environment" of where the tortoises came from. We have learned so much since then for the tortoise keepers who are still open minded and wanting to learn and improve. Most, unfortunately are content with what they have been doing for years, and since it didn't kill the tortoise, they felt it worked. Most breeders don't see the damage done by these incorrect assumption with their hatchlings as they sell them and ship them to new homes and don't see the tortoise fail to survive or die in a few months. And if contacted, they blame the care at the new home.

I have not been satisfied with good enough. "Good enough" is the primary enemy of great! Just like many of the primary folks here on the forum, we are constantly questioning and sharing the best practices and go by results, not simply by what we've done for years! I was not satified raising a pyramided tortoise and was driven to find out how to raise a smooth, natural looking tortoise. Although considered cosmetic, pyramiding to me is a sign that conditions are not right, and just as the outside is growing deformed, so might be the insides.

Your substrate is good. IT is basically fir bark (orchid bark). It is what I recommend and use. But buy it from a garden center as fir bark/orchid bark and save 4-5 times the money as something marketed for reptiles. I buy at Green Acres and get the GreenAll Micro bark at $10 for 2 cu ft.

It is true that micro climates are necessary and how tortoises manage to survive in the wild. But in captivity, why not create the microclimate they are seeking with our enclosures? No need to create the other climates they are hiding from!

75° is too cool for a young tortoise. They do best closer to their optimal body temp which is in the mid 80°s. So I never let an enclosure drop below 80° in the coldest part day or night. I always keep humidity at 90% and the do much better as well. I believe plant cover is the natural hide and security for a tortoise as well as it creates the microclimate they seek - so they are conditioned to look for that type place.

Here's a picture of an enclosure I use for my baby stars. Followed by a picture I use for yearling stars. YOu have seen above a picture of a leopard I raised this way. I will add at the bottom a picture of a Burmese Star also that has been raised this way. Stars are at least as hard if not more so to raise without pyramiding unless conditions are perfect. I show this to allow you to judge the advice not by what I say, but the results it produces over, and over.

Please follow our care guidelines and you will see the difference in how your tortoise thrives and acts.

View attachment 287782
View attachment 287783
Here's a 10 month old Burmese Star...

View attachment 287785

And here's a 5 month old sulcata!

View attachment 287786

I LOVE the enclosure. What type of tank is that if you dont mind me asking?

 

[Markw84]

I LOVE the enclosure. What type of tank is that if you dont mind me asking?

Those are the "Smart Enclosures" that I make and sell. Double walled made of PVC.

 

[Jodipg82]

I know there is a lot of conflicting info out there. The problem is everyone, including me, only had the books available on how to raise and care for tortoises and all the books said basically the same thing, but were written with incorrect conlclustions based on how they saw the "natural environment" of where the tortoises came from. We have learned so much since then for the tortoise keepers who are still open minded and wanting to learn and improve. Most, unfortunately are content with what they have been doing for years, and since it didn't kill the tortoise, they felt it worked. Most breeders don't see the damage done by these incorrect assumption with their hatchlings as they sell them and ship them to new homes and don't see the tortoise fail to survive or die in a few months. And if contacted, they blame the care at the new home.

I have not been satisfied with good enough. "Good enough" is the primary enemy of great! Just like many of the primary folks here on the forum, we are constantly questioning and sharing the best practices and go by results, not simply by what we've done for years! I was not satified raising a pyramided tortoise and was driven to find out how to raise a smooth, natural looking tortoise. Although considered cosmetic, pyramiding to me is a sign that conditions are not right, and just as the outside is growing deformed, so might be the insides.

Your substrate is good. IT is basically fir bark (orchid bark). It is what I recommend and use. But buy it from a garden center as fir bark/orchid bark and save 4-5 times the money as something marketed for reptiles. I buy at Green Acres and get the GreenAll Micro bark at $10 for 2 cu ft.

It is true that micro climates are necessary and how tortoises manage to survive in the wild. But in captivity, why not create the microclimate they are seeking with our enclosures? No need to create the other climates they are hiding from!

75° is too cool for a young tortoise. They do best closer to their optimal body temp which is in the mid 80°s. So I never let an enclosure drop below 80° in the coldest part day or night. I always keep humidity at 90% and the do much better as well. I believe plant cover is the natural hide and security for a tortoise as well as it creates the microclimate they seek - so they are conditioned to look for that type place.

Here's a picture of an enclosure I use for my baby stars. Followed by a picture I use for yearling stars. YOu have seen above a picture of a leopard I raised this way. I will add at the bottom a picture of a Burmese Star also that has been raised this way. Stars are at least as hard if not more so to raise without pyramiding unless conditions are perfect. I show this to allow you to judge the advice not by what I say, but the results it produces over, and over.

Please follow our care guidelines and you will see the difference in how your tortoise thrives and acts.

View attachment 287782
View attachment 287783
Here's a 10 month old Burmese Star...

View attachment 287785

And here's a 5 month old sulcata!

View attachment 287786

Beautiful enclosures! May I ask what plants you have growing? I'd love real plants and not fake ones but want to make sure they are safe for my Leopard hatchling
Thanks!!

 

[Lokkje]

Here’s a picture of one of Mark’s enclosures with plants that I put in that are common plants that were grown without any chemicals or fertilizers that could be harmful to my leopard. I leave them in the pots and just set them in place and then I can rotate them and move them around or pull them out as I wish. You will see in various postings people advising you to look at thetortoisetable.org.uk where you can look up different plants and see if they are safe. That’s how I figured out which plants I wanted for the enclosure. I love my enclosure and posted the pictures on the thread marked enclosures in the general information threads.