"Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

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TortoiseBoy1999

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

TylerStewart said:
Congrats! Your temperatures are for sure good for natural hatching, as ours are very similar and we find baby sulcatas every September (almost only in September). I found baby leopards in an outdoor pen yesterday (found the nest in an above-ground hidebox). Last week we were finding baby hermanns and Greeks running wild in the outdoor pens. I love looking for babies, I feel like a kid at Easter all over again. I know I have some Indian star eggs in the ground that I could never find and expect/hope to find babies any day now. With some species, I get much better hatch rates from natural incubation than I do in the incubator.

Our pens aren't massive like your 7,000 square foot area, but a baby Greek or hermanns is 1" long and great at burying themselves, so it makes me nervous even walking in there during the fall. After rain is usually when we find babies.

I would LOVE looking for baby tortoise's! That would be like the most fun I could ever do in my life! :D
 

TheTortoiseWhisperer

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

I would LOVE looking for baby tortoise's! That would be like the most fun I could ever do in my life! :D
[/quote]<----- THAT'S WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE A TORTOISE MANIAC!!!! LOL
 

TortoiseBoy1999

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

TheTortoiseWhisperer said:
I would LOVE looking for baby tortoise's! That would be like the most fun I could ever do in my life! :D
<----- THAT'S WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE A TORTOISE MANIAC!!!! LOL
[/QUOTE]

That is very true! :D
 

Momof4

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Congrats Tom! As OP's have said "you are one lucky man!" Come to think of it, I would be in heaven if I was searching for hatchlings too!
 

Tom

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TylerStewart said:
Congrats! Your temperatures are for sure good for natural hatching, as ours are very similar and we find baby sulcatas every September (almost only in September). I found baby leopards in an outdoor pen yesterday (found the nest in an above-ground hidebox). Last week we were finding baby hermanns and Greeks running wild in the outdoor pens. I love looking for babies, I feel like a kid at Easter all over again. I know I have some Indian star eggs in the ground that I could never find and expect/hope to find babies any day now. With some species, I get much better hatch rates from natural incubation than I do in the incubator.

Our pens aren't massive like your 7,000 square foot area, but a baby Greek or hermanns is 1" long and great at burying themselves, so it makes me nervous even walking in there during the fall. After rain is usually when we find babies.

Do you know when your eggs that hatched in the ground were laid? I'm just guessing that they would have to have been laid in the spring time. May or April maybe, even early June would be possible. In other words, do you think the eggs could over winter and then hatch the next fall? Have you ever had any of your winter clutches from December or January hatch in the fall?
 

TylerStewart

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Tom said:
Do you know when your eggs that hatched in the ground were laid? I'm just guessing that they would have to have been laid in the spring time. May or April maybe, even early June would be possible. In other words, do you think the eggs could over winter and then hatch the next fall? Have you ever had any of your winter clutches from December or January hatch in the fall?

The sulcata eggs were laid in the spring, but since the ground is cool until about May, they all start developing in May/June and all hatch in September (even if they were laid in April, I think they just sit there not developing much until May). Not sure if the sulcata eggs can or would over winter, but I almost never get fall sulcata eggs so I've never had that happen. I would guess if the temps were right, they'd be fine, but if yours are hatching now they're almost certainly from May or June. The rain helps them dig out of the hard ground. Usually when I find babies, they look like they're at least 2-3 weeks old based on belly buttons being sealed up well. I think they hatch and hang out together waiting for rain. It's rained a lot here the past few weeks, perfect timing for in-ground incubation.

Keep in mind, all these dates are in Las Vegas weather.... Minor differences will change these dates, but as a general guide, your temps and seasons are awfully close to ours.

The leopards lay in the fall here and they definitely overwinter. My leopards are just starting to lay now and will lay thru January, give or take a month. I've dug some up in the winter while rearranging pens and the eggs were 55 degrees when I dug them up (checked with a temp gun). I left them at room temperature for a few weeks then gradually warmed them up and they hatched 4-5 months later in the incubator. We get leopard eggs randomly thru the year, but probably 80% of them are laid in the fall. We got our first star eggs yesterday also which is a few months earlier than our average, but we also get them randomly thru the year.

Here's some photos from the past:

9-11-11 (one year ago yesterday) baby sulcatas coming out of the nest:
315640_10150308069773286_1029322321_n.jpg


8-20-12 (few weeks ago) baby hermanns right out of the adult pen, still muddy:
547188_10151100546778286_2011980671_n.jpg


9-11-12 (yesterday) baby leopards hatched in ground just after a bath:
615207_10151138763178286_920343811_o.jpg


8-22-12 (few weeks ago) baby hermanns and Greeks my wife found:
574952_10151175420932139_339427376_n.jpg
 

elvis

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

Tom, is Goldie in the 7000 sq ft pen ?
 

mary t

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

Wow Tom, congrats. I know you are loosing sleep over being so excited.. We could organize a trip over to your place if you need help looking a little more.. I'm sure at least 50 of us would be willing to make the trip..lol.. Good luck and keep us posted on the little meat pies!
 

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

elvis said:
Tom, is Goldie in the 7000 sq ft pen ?

Yes she is. Doing great.
 

taytay3391

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

Ha! Cute little guys. Very cool.
 

Linzbragg

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RE: "Wild" Sulcata Babies Hatched in Southern CA!!!

This is so awesome! I can't imagine what it must've been like to realize that little thing was a baby. What an incredible surprise! You're jaw must've dropped to the floor. Congrats, I'm so jealous.
 

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UPDATE: Well the plot thickens....

I found another baby today. Kinda cool, BUT... I found him in the juvenile pen where the adults have never been. There is a block wall between the two pens that is three blocks high. There is barely enough room for a cockroach to squeeze through the cracks, no way a hatchling tortoise could fit. So this led me to think that the nest where all these babies are coming from is along the wall somewhere and some have dug up on each side of the wall. An exhaustive search for any sort of sign of a nest along either side of the wall came up empty.

I'm mentally going over the things that are physically possible, but all of them are just so implausible. So odd...
 

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Tom said:
UPDATE: Well the plot thickens....

I found another baby today. Kinda cool, BUT... I found him in the juvenile pen where the adults have never been. There is a block wall between the two pens that is three blocks high. There is barely enough room for a cockroach to squeeze through the cracks, no way a hatchling tortoise could fit. So this led me to think that the nest where all these babies are coming from is along the wall somewhere and some have dug up on each side of the wall. An exhaustive search for any sort of sign of a nest along either side of the wall came up empty.

I'm mentally going over the things that are physically possible, but all of them are just so implausible. So odd...

Are there any large birds or other type of animal that might have carried the tortoise from the adult pen and dropped it in the juvenile pen?
 

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This is one of those physical possibilities, but it just seems so unlikely. It is physically possible that a raven flew overhead, swooped down and grabbed a baby, and flew off totally unseen by seven pairs of eyes, but it is so unlikely. And if a bird took the time to swoop down and get an easy meal, why did it drop it? If it did drop it, why not come back and pick it up again?

I don't have any of the answers here. For the time being, this is a mystery. I am pleased to have 8 "wild" hatched babies. :) I am trying a different style of raising these guys too. I'm putting them outside in a well planted 4x8' pen with lots of shade and cover. They go out first thing in the morning and come in at dusk or dark, get a bit of soaking time and then off to bed in their humid indoor enclosure.
 

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Tom said:
So I was messing around in my huge adult sulcata pen yesterday afternoon when something caught my eye.
20f6jdj.jpg


Mind you, this pen is 7000 square feet has a 200+' long run on one end and wraps around four sides of a building. It has lots of nooks and crannies, a pasture section, puddles, a water source, a big hillside, a big raised night house, shade tables, a big adult burrow that is at least 17' long/deep, logs, rocks, gopher holes, etc... Here are some pics if you haven't seen it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Enclosure-Expansion#axzz26BIMls8P
Its much greener down there now and all those pens are overflowing with grass, alfalfa, clover, squash and other plants now. The whole inside is now planted opposite that outside row too, plus there are some added 4x8' shade table/raised planters. Here is a more recent photo:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Sulcata-Burrows--50846?highlight=burrow#axzz26BIMls8P

Upon closer inspection the little thing that caught my eye was THIS little guy:
wum9vp.jpg

As I ran for the camera, he started running for cover. I snapped a few pics and then scooped him up. I was dumbfounded. I was trying to figure out how one of my babies got from home back to the ranch... It took me a minute to put it together and realize what I was really looking at. I have no idea where the nest is/was. I have no idea who the mother or father is. I have no idea when the eggs were laid. My females are pretty regular and they tell me when they are going to lay. Nobody missed their normal time to lay, and whenever they "told" me they were gonna lay, they did, and each nest was found and dug up for artificial incubation. Well clearly I somehow missed one. I don't know if this is a nest from last year that over wintered or a nest from this year that was laid in the spring. We have had a very consistently warm summer, but this summer has had a lot of unusually warm nights too. I didn't think this was possible here...

My co-workers joined me in a very thorough search of the entire enclosure. We spent an hour or more going over every inch of the pen and can't find the nest hole where they are coming from. We DID find six more little siblings though:
2yotzfa.jpg


I've got this "Magnificent Seven" set up in a 100 gallon tank now and the search for more will continue today. I'd really like to find the nest and open it up for study. I don't know how many hatched or when. These seven were literally spread from one end of the pen to the other. One was on top of the giant hill and two were way down in the farthest corner near the horse trailer. That's a walking distance of around 300'. A football field. Three were found alone and two were found in pairs hanging out together.

I can't even explain what a thrill this was. I'm still so excited. I intend to hang on to these guys and see how they turn out for a while. I want to see if there are any major differences between them and their artificially incubated siblings. Of course, anyone who knows me already knows they were soaking within minutes of being found... :D One of them had some dried algae on his shell indicating that he had already found and soaked himself in one of my long standing puddles from the irrigation system. Seriously... How cool is THIS?
Really incredible! You've obviously mastered the Sulcata environment so that they are able to breed freely. One question--are they insulated from escape into the broader world so that they don't become invasive? Great photos as well! Good luck!
Ron
 

Tom

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They are inside a big wall with an 18" footer. Unless a bird airlifts them out, they aren't going anywhere.

Also, they would never survive over winter here without some artificial heat. Most nights are at or near freezing, all winter long, with occasional dips into the low 20s. Even 3' deep the ground stays around 50 for several months. I don't think any baby sulcata can survive that without ever warming up.
 
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