Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way

[Rachel Sobran]

If only I would've read this 2 years ago

why do you say that oscar?

 

[tortoisenoob42]

Im glad i read this first lol i almost bought 2 males

 

[NiinaHawk]

We have 5 tortoise in same place and ever nothing happened. 4 girls and baby. It is true we can't know what will happen, but at this moment all is well in here and all is enjoying the moment eachothers.
Your text was good cause we never know what will happened and we need be ready to separate them.

 

[Clunk]

Thanks for posting this well-written article. I've had my russian for about 5 years now and was concerned he might be lonely - until I observed how vigorously he attacked his own reflection. I though he might need a female companion since he was always trying to mate with the base of a floor lamp I used to own until I read that they might bully and possibly kill her. Anyway 1 tortoise his size can be a handful so no pals for Clunk! And I definitely don't need a bunch of new babies to look after.

 

[Starry]

I have 2 male russian torts , they have been together for 8 years , they live together ,hibernate together and feed etc together, I'm amazed at the thread of never have 2, mine have never fought or bobbed their heads. Maybe I'm just lucky , one is larger than the other but he doesn't attack the smaller one.

 

[kjandrews]

I right now have a female russian and have been considering getting another one. Obviously everyone has said not to but I still have questions. What happens if two females of the same spieces are together? What happens when two females of a different species are put together?

 

[Tom]

Maybe I'm just lucky...

No maybe about it.

How are they housed? Indoors or out? What size enclosure? Where are you?

 

[Tom]

What happens if two females of the same spieces are together? What happens when two females of a different species are put together?

Question 1: It depends on the species, their age, how they are housed, enclosure size, the season, etc... With some species, like leopards for example, it often will work. With russians it is more likely that one will attack the other or intimidate the other into hiding all the time.

Question : Species should never be mixed, but again, this depends on the same things as number one.

Tortoises usually don't do well in pairs. It is a practice best avoided. House them as singles or house them in groups.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

After my male Luna lost for 10 days, reunited w/me Tuesday and just having gotten a smaller female Sunday who he met Tuesday, they just keep getting closer and closer like newlyweds or best child buddies-it's unreal BUT I'm keeping my eyes open for change at any second. Meanwhile, they are next to inseparable and seem to be relaxing each other like security blankets (from noise, vibrations, etc.)

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I have 2 male russian torts , they have been together for 8 years , they live together ,hibernate together and feed etc together, I'm amazed at the thread of never have 2, mine have never fought or bobbed their heads. Maybe I'm just lucky , one is larger than the other but he doesn't attack the smaller one.

It's not always a attack it can be a look , control of the water dish ,food dish , or Evan the sunny spot . And you can tell this by a size difference .

 

[Russianuncletwo]

It's not always a attack it can be a look , control of the water dish ,food dish , or Evan the sunny spot . And you can tell this by a size difference .
View attachment 142397

Good point-thanks. I've seen this with ferrets; all of a sudden the sweet looking female wouldn't let the male eat nor sleep in their favorite hammock. I put an end to this during their three week stay with me (when they had the run of a huge walkout cage and my sunporch) and passed this concern to their new owners after. Male ferret was looking emaciated when I received them and I knew these critters for quite a while-the female just all of a sudden "took over". This is why I am keeping a cynical eye on what looks like Romeo & Juliet of torts here. The good news is I am seeing what would be considered politeness and deference if I were observing humans. this could be temporary apprehensiveness and once they get too comfortable, a dominance play on the part of one could happen. Hopefully not, but I need to keep an eye on it and unfortunately can't run a video camera and spend hours a day reviewing it when I'm not in front of them.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

Not all bullying takes the form of attack. If one continues to thrive and grow and the other doesn't grow, it's being bullied.

Sometimes the bully is the smaller one. I'm about to rehome an old large rt because of this.

 

[amy&alfie]

This answers my question! Thanks for sharing! X

 

[Russianuncletwo]

My input to this thread's topic is included in my last entry to my thread entry called, "
2 HIDES OR NOT 2 HIDES"

 

[Nicole74]

Question #1 answered

 

[awesomecs]

This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a thread on the TFO that has the article. @Tom and others have been saying this for a long time - this is nothing new, I've just added fun pictures.

Today I would like to write about an important lesson that I learned the hard way a few years ago: it is not a good idea to keep 2 tortoises together (yes, there are exceptions).

When tortoise owners ask me if I think they should get a second tortoise, I tell them: only if they plan to get a second enclosure. Then I advise them to spend the money on spoiling their 1 tortoise first: build a big outdoor enclosure, enlarge the indoor enclosure, upgrade the lighting. Put some money into savings for emergency vet care (you'll need it at some point during your tortoise's 80 or so years of life!).

...."But she's so.... lonely!"

Believe me, I've been there. Humans seek companionship, as do many other mammals. We like to project our own feelings onto our pets, and so, we assume that our tortoise would be happier with a 'friend.' Please know that I am not judging you for wanting to get another tortoise. Getting a little 'friend' for a tortoise can be so tempting. The truth is: (except for a few species like redfoot torts, aldabras, or pancake torts), most tortoises are loners in the wild. They roam several acres, and only occasionally encounter other tortoises. If a tortoise encounters another, they will fight, mate, or both. Then they wander apart again (or one is chased away by the other).



If you are thinking of getting your pet tortoise a 'buddy' then I hope you read my story first, and put some serious thought into your decision after reading about my experience. Keeping 2 tortoises together (especially of the testudo species) is NOT a cake walk.


In reality, it will look like this... *BITE!* ... a lot of the time.

If you get a male and a female, after much biting and bullying, there will be plenty of mating too. More than there would ever be in nature. Enough mating to kill the female.



If the female can't get away from the male, he will seek her out again and again (more than in nature, since there she CAN get away). My friend rescued a tortoise female earlier this year whose vent was terribly infected and torn and chafed and ripped from all the mating. It took her a long time to heal.


The infected, oozing, puss-filled tail of my friend's rescued female that was mated too much.
(I'm posting a small picture just so it's not too gross)

Here is how I learned my lesson:

I started out with one female Russian tortoise, Timmy. After I had her for a few years, I decided I'd like to get a second tortoise. A few knowledgeable people on the tortoise forums advised against this. They warned me that tortoises, especially the testudo species (to which Russian tortoises belong) are very territorial. They told me that the tortoises would compete for food, for the basking spot, for space. They told me that they would bite and ram, and one would become stressed, hurt, and might die.


"Timmy needs a friend. My tortoises will be different and won't fight."

For some reason, I was convinced that 'my' tortoises would be different. I set up a my enclosure with lots of site barriers. I soon adopted a little male, Roz. For the first 18 or so months, everything went well. There were NO signs of aggression, both tortoises ate together, basked together, slept together. Yay! My tortoises were the exception!


Wait. What?! My male is biting my female?! Oh no!

Then one day, Roz matured. Roz discovered that he was a rapist little man-tortoise with needs and urges. Roz discovered that he didn't like sharing his food. Roz discovered that he could boss Timmy around, in spite of being half her size. Roz became a big, mean, bossy, biting bully. Timmy lost scales on her legs, and even got a bite wound on her face once. Roz got to spend a lot of time in the time-out bin until I separated him permanently.

Watch this video of Roz bobbing his head at Timmy (which is territorial behavior), and then circling her and biting her:

In the wild, this is 'normal' courting behavior. However, in the wild, the female can get away! In captivity, while both tortoises were kept in the same enclosure, Roz wanted to mate with Timmy 15+ times each day. He spent his spare time bullying her away from the food or the basking spot. Timmy started to become withdrawn, and wanted to hide and sleep all the time. I separated the two, and she started eating again, thank goodness.

Now, the 'easy' solution would have been to re-home Roz. This, however, was not an option for me. I had made a commitment to care for him, and did not want to break this commitment. The 'harder' solution was to a) separate my male, b) build a larger enclosure, and c) get a little harem of female tortoises for him. It took me nearly a year to find females, since in the pet trade, most tortoises are male. I finally got Mila and Jill, and then Lady.



I know that some people will advise that two female tortoises will get along fine. I disagree: one will always be the underdog. At least for testudo species, if you want to keep multiple females together, you should get 3 or more. This way they are less likely to fight, and the bullying will be divided a little among them.
During the Summer, the tortoises happily (and peacefully) lived outside in the large tortoise garden I built them. They will be divided over several indoor tortoise tables for the winter.


They spread out over the entire tortoise garden, except to eat.

IF you decide you want more than 1 tortoise, please avoid keeping 2 males together, or 1 male and 1 female. Either 3 females (with LOTS of space) or 1 male and 3+ females might work... but even then, you may find yourself needing a degree in tortoise diplomatics!

IF you decide to keep multiple tortoises, please remember that the enclosure size must adjust accordingly for multiple tortoises! If the absolute minimum size for 1 tortoise is 2'x4', then each additional tortoise will need at least that much more space. As always, larger is better when it comes to tortoise enclosures!

um I better go tell my dad I don't want anoher tortoise

 

[Carla - Jean]

This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a thread on the TFO that has the article. @Tom and others have been saying this for a long time - this is nothing new, I've just added fun pictures.

Today I would like to write about an important lesson that I learned the hard way a few years ago: it is not a good idea to keep 2 tortoises together (yes, there are exceptions).

When tortoise owners ask me if I think they should get a second tortoise, I tell them: only if they plan to get a second enclosure. Then I advise them to spend the money on spoiling their 1 tortoise first: build a big outdoor enclosure, enlarge the indoor enclosure, upgrade the lighting. Put some money into savings for emergency vet care (you'll need it at some point during your tortoise's 80 or so years of life!).

...."But she's so.... lonely!"

Believe me, I've been there. Humans seek companionship, as do many other mammals. We like to project our own feelings onto our pets, and so, we assume that our tortoise would be happier with a 'friend.' Please know that I am not judging you for wanting to get another tortoise. Getting a little 'friend' for a tortoise can be so tempting. The truth is: (except for a few species like redfoot torts, aldabras, or pancake torts), most tortoises are loners in the wild. They roam several acres, and only occasionally encounter other tortoises. If a tortoise encounters another, they will fight, mate, or both. Then they wander apart again (or one is chased away by the other).



If you are thinking of getting your pet tortoise a 'buddy' then I hope you read my story first, and put some serious thought into your decision after reading about my experience. Keeping 2 tortoises together (especially of the testudo species) is NOT a cake walk.


In reality, it will look like this... *BITE!* ... a lot of the time.

If you get a male and a female, after much biting and bullying, there will be plenty of mating too. More than there would ever be in nature. Enough mating to kill the female.



If the female can't get away from the male, he will seek her out again and again (more than in nature, since there she CAN get away). My friend rescued a tortoise female earlier this year whose vent was terribly infected and torn and chafed and ripped from all the mating. It took her a long time to heal.


The infected, oozing, puss-filled tail of my friend's rescued female that was mated too much.
(I'm posting a small picture just so it's not too gross)

Here is how I learned my lesson:

I started out with one female Russian tortoise, Timmy. After I had her for a few years, I decided I'd like to get a second tortoise. A few knowledgeable people on the tortoise forums advised against this. They warned me that tortoises, especially the testudo species (to which Russian tortoises belong) are very territorial. They told me that the tortoises would compete for food, for the basking spot, for space. They told me that they would bite and ram, and one would become stressed, hurt, and might die.


"Timmy needs a friend. My tortoises will be different and won't fight."

For some reason, I was convinced that 'my' tortoises would be different. I set up a my enclosure with lots of site barriers. I soon adopted a little male, Roz. For the first 18 or so months, everything went well. There were NO signs of aggression, both tortoises ate together, basked together, slept together. Yay! My tortoises were the exception!


Wait. What?! My male is biting my female?! Oh no!

Then one day, Roz matured. Roz discovered that he was a rapist little man-tortoise with needs and urges. Roz discovered that he didn't like sharing his food. Roz discovered that he could boss Timmy around, in spite of being half her size. Roz became a big, mean, bossy, biting bully. Timmy lost scales on her legs, and even got a bite wound on her face once. Roz got to spend a lot of time in the time-out bin until I separated him permanently.

Watch this video of Roz bobbing his head at Timmy (which is territorial behavior), and then circling her and biting her:

In the wild, this is 'normal' courting behavior. However, in the wild, the female can get away! In captivity, while both tortoises were kept in the same enclosure, Roz wanted to mate with Timmy 15+ times each day. He spent his spare time bullying her away from the food or the basking spot. Timmy started to become withdrawn, and wanted to hide and sleep all the time. I separated the two, and she started eating again, thank goodness.

Now, the 'easy' solution would have been to re-home Roz. This, however, was not an option for me. I had made a commitment to care for him, and did not want to break this commitment. The 'harder' solution was to a) separate my male, b) build a larger enclosure, and c) get a little harem of female tortoises for him. It took me nearly a year to find females, since in the pet trade, most tortoises are male. I finally got Mila and Jill, and then Lady.



I know that some people will advise that two female tortoises will get along fine. I disagree: one will always be the underdog. At least for testudo species, if you want to keep multiple females together, you should get 3 or more. This way they are less likely to fight, and the bullying will be divided a little among them.
During the Summer, the tortoises happily (and peacefully) lived outside in the large tortoise garden I built them. They will be divided over several indoor tortoise tables for the winter.


They spread out over the entire tortoise garden, except to eat.

IF you decide you want more than 1 tortoise, please avoid keeping 2 males together, or 1 male and 1 female. Either 3 females (with LOTS of space) or 1 male and 3+ females might work... but even then, you may find yourself needing a degree in tortoise diplomatics!

IF you decide to keep multiple tortoises, please remember that the enclosure size must adjust accordingly for multiple tortoises! If the absolute minimum size for 1 tortoise is 2'x4', then each additional tortoise will need at least that much more space. As always, larger is better when it comes to tortoise enclosures!

 

[Carla - Jean]

So glad I've seen this. I have been 'given' (long story) 3 baby Horsefields. Soon had to take 1 out as he/she was constantly biting the other 2. That one now lives alone, but the other 2 are still together. They seem to be 'getting on' fine at the moment but am now going to separate them also. Thanks.

 

[Vita]

biochemnerd808
Thank you very much for your story! I must say that I am very sad that I did not know this information more that 10 years ago when I got a couple of Russian tortoises. Last year they started fighting. No all the time but still...the video showed exactly the same behaviour my male tortoise does againt the female. I know, I will separate them very very soon. Just have to get a new enclousure for the other tortoise and a place where to put it.

 

[biochemnerd808]

biochemnerd808
Thank you very much for your story! I must say that I am very sad that I did not know this information more that 10 years ago when I got a couple of Russian tortoises. Last year they started fighting. No all the time but still...the video showed exactly the same behaviour my male tortoise does againt the female. I know, I will separate them very very soon. Just have to get a new enclousure for the other tortoise and a place where to put it.

A rubbermaid bin may be a good temporary solution. The biggest you can find. Slightly cramped in a 2ft x 4ft bin is still better than being bullied and bitten....