Where to find pure South African Leopards?

Mingaun

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Hello. This is my first thread. I am also a beginner in raising tortoises. So far i had only kept and raised one leopard tortoise Frodo which died in a car accident. Frodo was 2 years old. It was heartbreaking and took us a while before deciding on raising a new leopard.

But one thing i realise with Frodo was shyness. We could never interact with him. Always spying on him secretly. That killed my sons interest. It was like a one way interaction. Every time he sees us he would shrink inside his shell. That’s when I found this thread about South African leopards which are suppose to be more outgoing and interactive. However i live in Malaysia and have pet stores that tell me they have the pure pardalis pardalis but i have my doubts.

I am hoping a pure breeder in this forum is willing to export to Malaysia. Or if anybody knows anyone who can do that. I really love the leopards and would love one that is outgoing. Any help or comment would be helpful. Just FYI Malaysia is hot and humid.

Thank you
Mark
 

Avuwyy

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Hello. This is my first thread. I am also a beginner in raising tortoises. So far i had only kept and raised one leopard tortoise Frodo which died in a car accident. Frodo was 2 years old. It was heartbreaking and took us a while before deciding on raising a new leopard.

But one thing i realise with Frodo was shyness. We could never interact with him. Always spying on him secretly. That killed my sons interest. It was like a one way interaction. Every time he sees us he would shrink inside his shell. That’s when I found this thread about South African leopards which are suppose to be more outgoing and interactive. However i live in Malaysia and have pet stores that tell me they have the pure pardalis pardalis but i have my doubts.

I am hoping a pure breeder in this forum is willing to export to Malaysia. Or if anybody knows anyone who can do that. I really love the leopards and would love one that is outgoing. Any help or comment would be helpful. Just FYI Malaysia is hot and humid.

Thank you
Mark

You’re not likely to find a leopard who isn’t skittish, all tortoises will retreat to their shell when they feel threatened or confused, leopards especially. Leopard Tortoises arent conflict ready unlike Sulcatas who will butt their heads if they feel threatened, which is a good thing considering the size leopards grow to. But the fact is, no tortoise is not going to retreat to their shell when they see something they’re uncomfortable with, reptilians don’t have a complex idea of what a friend is, you are a food giver to them and they can sometimes show a little affection, but they are not dogs who will dance around and play with you, and pass out with excitement from seeing you.

If you don’t like the shyness of your old tortoise it’s probably something to do with a lack of interaction or just the species in general, you’re better off with a different species which is more outgoing. But then again, if your son loses interest in a tortoises shyness perhaps they’re not the pet for you... they take a lot of care, and can take a while before they get used to handling, because technically you’re a predator to them, and it could take years before they shake that off.

I’m unable to help you with Pardalis Pardalis, because I myself have never seen one or heard of a breeder who breeds them..
 

Mingaun

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You’re not likely to find a leopard who isn’t skittish, all tortoises will retreat to their shell when they feel threatened or confused, leopards especially. Leopard Tortoises arent conflict ready unlike Sulcatas who will butt their heads if they feel threatened, which is a good thing considering the size leopards grow to. But the fact is, no tortoise is not going to retreat to their shell when they see something they’re uncomfortable with, reptilians don’t have a complex idea of what a friend is, you are a food giver to them and they can sometimes show a little affection, but they are not dogs who will dance around and play with you, and pass out with excitement from seeing you.

If you don’t like the shyness of your old tortoise it’s probably something to do with a lack of interaction or just the species in general, you’re better off with a different species which is more outgoing. But then again, if your son loses interest in a tortoises shyness perhaps they’re not the pet for you... they take a lot of care, and can take a while before they get used to handling, because technically you’re a predator to them, and it could take years before they shake that off.

I’m unable to help you with Pardalis Pardalis, because I myself have never seen one or heard of a breeder who breeds them..
Thanks for the reply. Yes i have come to the conclusion that leopards are generally shy. My Frodo was well interacted. A lot of attention was given to him. But we kind of realise that his personality was not going to change. My son’s interest is secondary because this tortoise is for me first and foremost. I was actually looking for a sulcata or an Aldabra until i stumble across someone from this forum describing the personality of South African leopards which intrigued me. I am still searching and thinking and looking at options.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Thanks for the reply. Yes i have come to the conclusion that leopards are generally shy. My Frodo was well interacted. A lot of attention was given to him. But we kind of realise that his personality was not going to change. My son’s interest is secondary because this tortoise is for me first and foremost. I was actually looking for a sulcata or an Aldabra until i stumble across someone from this forum describing the personality of South African leopards which intrigued me. I am still searching and thinking and looking at options.
Just a thought, Redfoots are very personable usually. Not usually shy, and stay a lot smaller and manageable. I love mine!
 

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You’re not likely to find a leopard who isn’t skittish...

I’m unable to help you with Pardalis Pardalis, because I myself have never seen one or heard of a breeder who breeds them..

Raise a few first, and then come back and advise other members about the intricacies of their personalities. They are very different than "regular" leopards. I've raised about 100 of them thus far, but that number will likely more than double at the end of this summer.
 

Mingaun

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Hi Tom,

Hope you don’t mind me asking but do you export your tortoises overseas?
 

Tom

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Thanks for the thought. Still prefer leopards though.
International shipping for a single tortoise, or even a small group just isn't practical, and might not even be possible given the state of the world's governments.

If you post pics of the ones available to you that are claimed to be South African in origin, those of us who know and have raised both types can lend our over seas opinions.

Here is a pic of what true South African hatchlings look like:
IMG_3390.JPG

IMG_3747.JPG
 

Mingaun

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Wow they are absolutely stunning. Thanks for sharing these pictures. Helpful for comparisons in the future. But i doubt we have any of these in Malaysia.
 

Tom

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These are the supposedly South African leopards. What do you all think?
Here is where this gets complicated. Over here we have two basic variants, or so it would seem. We have the "regular" leopards, formerly known as babcocki, and the "South African" leopards known as pardalis pardalis. In 2010 "they" did away with the subspecific names and decided that is was all one species, with no subspecies, but with 11 distinct clades showing morphological differences from throughout the enormous range.

Here's the problem: Over here in the USA, any imported leopard from anywhere in the range has been mixed with any other leopard since the 60s. And some haven't been mixed. The "true" SA leopards over here all trace back to one guy who bought fresh imports directly from SA in 1990 and never mixed them with anything else. All the ones I've ever found in this country eventually traced back to him.

Here's the other problem. All the SA leopards over here are from one of these 11 clades. Six of the 11 clades occur in SA. So while the ones in your picture do not look like the SA leopards from the clade that we have here and refer to as "SA leopards", it is possible that those are from one of the other five clades of leopard tortoises that also occur in South Africa. These in your pics looks more like "regular" leopards to me, but I do not know what all 11 clades look like as babies, juveniles and adults. I know the type from my own clade, but even those are sometimes tough to ID as they grow up. I've misidentified my own babies in their juvenile state at least once. I've seen babies of "regular" leopards many times, but are those a mix or from one of the different clades? I don't know.

What I usually tell people is that all leopards are great and pretty, and just get one that pleases your own eye. This doesn't help you though, because you are also looking for specific personality traits that are more common in one type vs. another. All I can tell you is that the type in the picture is not the typical type of SA leopard we have here. It looks to me like a regular leopard and possibly a mix. No one can definitely say that the ones in the pic are not from SA. They might be. But I can say that they aren't the type that I know and love, and I don't know what their personality will be like.
 

Mingaun

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Thanks a million Tom. Your really know your stuff well. Your babies are stunning. How i wish I live nearby you. Its really good to hear that you are trying to preserve this breed line. I think it is very important. As for me, i am still undecided. If i cant get a South African leopard, i might get an Aldabra.
 

Koala

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Thanks for the reply. Yes i have come to the conclusion that leopards are generally shy. My Frodo was well interacted. A lot of attention was given to him. But we kind of realise that his personality was not going to change. My son’s interest is secondary because this tortoise is for me first and foremost. I was actually looking for a sulcata or an Aldabra until i stumble across someone from this forum describing the personality of South African leopards which intrigued me. I am still searching and thinking and looking at options.
Mingaun. I have a baby Leopard tortoise she have been my baby for about 18months she is very tame and even sometimes come to me when I call her. I have to tell you I spend a lot of time with her each day I interact with her and at night she sleep in my room next to my bed. Hope this help.
 

Mingaun

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Hi Koala,

Notice you are from Cape Town. I was on holiday there not too long ago. Beautiful city.

Thanks for your advice. Maybe i just did not interact enough with Frodo. But at this moment I have decided to get an Aldabra baby and hoepfully with lots of TLC things will be different.
 

Mingaun

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I think you are right. That’s why i have given up hope. Anyway i have always secretly thought of owning an Aldabra, a chance just came up and i might go for an Aladabra instead of a Leopard.
 

Koala

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Hi Koala,

Notice you are from Cape Town. I was on holiday there not too long ago. Beautiful city.

Thanks for your advice. Maybe i just did not interact enough with Frodo. But at this moment I have decided to get an Aldabra baby and hoepfully with lots of TLC things will be different.
Mingaun, yes my friends laugh at me as to the extent I go and time I spend with her. Good luck. I don't know what an Aldabra look like and what their personalities would be like wish you lots of fun with him or her.
 

Tom

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I think you are right. That’s why i have given up hope. Anyway i have always secretly thought of owning an Aldabra, a chance just came up and i might go for an Aladabra instead of a Leopard.
Its not talked about much, but from what I've seen Aldabran tortoises are not the most bold and outgoing either. Their personalities are similar to a regular leopard tortoise or Indian Star.

Just wanted you to know that.
 
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