When does it end.. (shell rot)

[Whayla]

When I first bought my young female RF tortoise about a year ago, I struggled the battle of shell rot for a good 2-3 months. The situation was remedied and she has been happy and healthy for some time now. Today, while investigating her plastron before her usual soak, I noticed that there was some too familiar signs that she once again is dealing with this nasty fungal/bacterial illness. Tortuga has not had a decline in appetite, nor in her behavior. This time, the shell rot was caught very soon and I have already taken steps for her recovery.
I felt so terrible the first time I found out (not knowing if I adopted her with shell rot, or caused it within the first few weeks), and now I feel like I am a terrible tortoise parent for letting history repeat itself.

Now for my questions, what the heck am I doing wrong?! In the bottom half of her enclosure it is strictly cypress mulch with some sphagnum moss in her cave hide as burrowing/hiding material. The moss stays dry, and only is misted every once in awhile. This is because (when doing research and asking questions when the first shell rot scare came around) I was originally told that the moss when wet can be too acidic for my tortoise and could cause shell rot, so I hardly moisten the moss. Just keep it in there because Tortuga likes to hide behind it to block out the light. There is a soaking area for her and some flat rocks for a dry area. This area also has a day light that is on a timer for day/night, along with a ceramic heater that stays on 24/7 keeping the temps stable at around 82-86.
The top half of the enclosure has one MVB above a huge flat rock for basking, which is also on a timer for day/night. Temps are 93-105 on the rock so she can choose where she feels most comfortable to bask. Here there is also a small watering dish so she can drink if she gets thirsty basking + it adds humidity. The other side of the enclosure is around 82-84 and has no light. The coldest temp I am reading in the middle of the day is 80F. I will have to check for night time temps a few hours after the lights have gone "down". The substrate on this top half is coco coir/cypress mulch.
I mist both the bottom and top halves of the enclosure one to two times a day, but only on one side. So both the bottom and top halves have wet/dry sides. Well, more like misted/dry sides. The enclosure definitely dries out with the MVB and ceramic heater, so I really need some advice on how to prevent this cycle from happening to my poor girl once again.

I've heard mixed things about cypress mulch causing tiny scrapes and cuts that can harbor bacteria/fungus.... I've also heard that some people keep their coco coir too moist which can cause shell rot (trust me, this is not the issue at hand here, I have learned from previous experience). What other substrates should I try, if anyone thinks a change in substrate would do the trick? I have heard that wood middlings (I cannot think of the name for the life of me) are a bit better than cypress chips because they are less abrasive? Btw, if anyone knows what I am talking about and would care to share the actual name, that would be much appreciated. Topsoil has been mentioned a lot when talking about tortoise substrate, and I am curious about the experiences and luck that people have had with it?

Really any input or suggestions/responses are truly helpful and appreciated. Thank you to all the experts out there when a newer tortoise parent is in need.

 

[ascott]

Howon long did you treat the first rot battle? At that time what did you see that led you to believe it was a good time to stop treatment?

I personally like peat moss...it is a pain in the but to initially get the water absorbed...but be patient and once it is moist..then use your hand to firmly pack it down to create a more solid surface for the tort to motor about on....as the top layers dry out the tort is not setting on wetness...which is ideal..however, if the tort desires a dip down into the substrate to get a bit more juicied up then it can...I personally do not like the wood or bark type substrates...too abrasive in my opinion...also the fluff stuff you mentioned is not so great in my experience either...and I have tried it a few different times and still don't like it...

 

[wellington]

From what I have learned on here, to prevent shell rot for RF is to keep the top layer dry. If the bottom layers is damp and the temps are warm enough, the humidity will be correct while keeping the top layer of substrate dry.

 

[mikeh]

Give medium/large coco husk chunks/chips a try(not coco coir). They are soft, smell great, retain water/moisture yet allow plenty of ventilation around plastron for it to stay relatively dry.
Soak in water for 10 mins then place in enclosure.

Get rid of everything else including moss.

 

[Whayla]

Howon long did you treat the first rot battle? At that time what did you see that led you to believe it was a good time to stop treatment?

I treated Tortuga for about two months straight. I was told to stop treatment when there was no signs of fungus (white) or rot, and the plastron is smooth and free from flaking. At the end of treatment she did still have slight indents where the worst of the shell rot hit. I was told scaring could be a possibility. I felt confident that the treatment had done its job and that my tortoise was healing properly. There was no new signs of rot until now. Do you think it could have just came back or that it wasn't destroyed 100%?

As for the advice on substrates and different things to try, I really appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences.

Where would I find coco husk chips as opposed to a coco coir?
If I were to do a layer of coco coir (as a base so she can play in the moist dirt she loves so much) and then a layer on top of that of coco husk/chips with maybe a slight amount of peat moss (so as to allow the top layer to dry), do you think this would be sufficient?
Thoughts or comments?

 

[Turtlepete]

Whoever told you spaghnum moss caused shell rot was way backwards. Most of my hatchlings are raised on spaghnum and do not have this issue. It is kept very moist as well.

The most likely scenario I think is that it really never went away to start with, and your just seeing the same shell fungus reoccur.

I don't think your substrate is causing this. Again, I think it's just reoccurring. I've always used cypress mulch; it's my favorite substrate! It doesn't cause shell fungus, that I'm aware of….My favorite mix for yearlings is ground-up cypress mulch mixed with peat moss on the surface, as it stays a little bit softer.
I can assure you I don't have to keep the surface bone-dry to prevent shell fungus.

 

[Whayla]

Thanks for your input, Turtlepete.
The cypress mulch I use are relatively large chips; do you grind your down a bit. And if so, how do you go about doing that?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

My tort got his shell plastron banged up by sharp cement and it looks like that started the fungus.(It's only in the banged up areas.) I don't know what the future holds as he lives outdoors in 80% humidity and has his own pond and still seeks out moist soil to sleep in. I've been treating him for a week and when it's raining, he comes inside my enclosed patio and stays on hay and ground up newspapers.

 

[ascott]

It is likely that the affected area was just not completely healed...a tortoise can take a bit of time to heal, especially if it is the shell. "I" personally like Peat Moss as the substrate...the wood particle type substrate just seems to lumpy and full of potential rough spots...now, everyone has their own way and those ways work for them..sounds as though you may be in the "find out what works for your set up" stage....

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Ascott, about the "rough spots". Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area? My guy was scraped up for about a year before it showed up and it only happened in the damaged areas. Also, the center portion of his plastron looks a little bit like de-laminating plywood. I think that is the beginning of actual "shell rot". The links tell you about the cures, but are a little vague on the diagnosis part. I'm treating for both. 50/50 Betadine and water treatment and a little anti-fungal cream after. Pictures are in my ABRASION OR FUNGUS? thread.

 

[Whayla]

It is likely that the affected area was just not completely healed...a tortoise can take a bit of time to heal, especially if it is the shell. "I" personally like Peat Moss as the substrate...the wood particle type substrate just seems to lumpy and full of potential rough spots...now, everyone has their own way and those ways work for them..sounds as though you may be in the "find out what works for your set up" stage....

Perfect description. I have tried different ratio mixes of cypress and coco coir for a year, but I'm always changing up the tortoise table to see what Tortuga enjoys most and what works best for the environment.

...Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area?.......

When you get a cut, it is a lot easier for bacteria to enter your body and it gets infected. It is practically the same concept. When shells are beat up, it is easier for fungus to spread. At least that would be my logic?

 

[Turtlepete]

Ascott, about the "rough spots". Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area? My guy was scraped up for about a year before it showed up and it only happened in the damaged areas. Also, the center portion of his plastron looks a little bit like de-laminating plywood. I think that is the beginning of actual "shell rot". The links tell you about the cures, but are a little vague on the diagnosis part. I'm treating for both. 50/50 Betadine and water treatment and a little anti-fungal cream after. Pictures are in my ABRASION OR FUNGUS? thread.

Your tortoise does not have "shell rot". This is an entirely different thing, a bacterial infection under the scutes. Diagnosis would be made from pitting, soft spots, terrible smell (ever smelled an infection?), discoloration, etc.. Very serious ailment that requires vet attention usually, and if allowed to progress could lead to septic infection, and therefore death.
Your tortoise doesn't have that.
Your tortoise, my friend, has shell fungus. Huge difference, but for some odd reason the two terms get lumped under the same name pretty much every day here :-/. Shell fungus is a fungus….Chalky white substance that spreads across the shell. Usually starts on the plastron, spreads to the marginals and if allowed to progress sometimes the carapace. Diagnosis is simple, cure is easy, and the worst it will leave is areas where it ate through a layer or two of keratin.

As far as cuts or banged up areas being infected by shell fungus easier, I would guess yes. It seems logical enough. It will certainly still happen whether there are banged up areas or not, however.

I would recommend changing up your regime there a little bit. Thats a pretty harsh dilution of betadine. Betadine is known to prohibit cell growth (or so they say?) and for that reason isn't used extensively. Usually only as a 1/10-ish dilution with water to scrub the affected areas the first two days. You could order some Novalsan and use that. Applying the cream and keeping him dry overnight for a week or two should do the trick.


I don't ground down cypress mulch. I actually have a massive pile of it since I use it for pretty much everything, and the stuff on the inside decomposes to a "ground up" state. This option obviously isn't available for everyone though. If you don't have that large of an enclosure, look into this: http://www.kincaidproducts.com/Reptile-Substrate-Trenton-FL.html
Kincaid makes a triple-ground cypress mulch specifically for reptiles. I've never personally used it, but there were advertising it at the NRBE as well. Looks like good stuff!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Turtlepete, Thanks VERY much for your description and diagnostic/cure/ advise. You described exactly what I'm dealing with and I'm absolutely convinced that you are correct. The areas are pitted depressions. The fungus appears to be gone as there is no more soft and flaky parts. It's all hard now. I'll lay off the batadine and continue the anti fungal. I clean him and treat him every day and he has been dry. Thanks SO much. Thatinformation is exactly what I needed. I owe you one!

 

[Whayla]

Agreed with every word, Turtlepete.
Your method for substrate sounds delightful, but unfortunately that option is out of reach for me, at least for right now. I like the idea though. Thanks for the advice and products to try everyone. Much needed and appreciated.

I hope your tortoise heals quickly, Zeropilot. Make sure to continue treatment.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Whayla, sorry to highjack your thread! What I use indoors is a thick layer of ORCHID bark that is dampened and another thinner layer of dry potting soil on top. The potting soil has less sand in it than top soil, and is also plentiful and cheap. I have found that by heating from the bottom...In my case with a taped on 15 watt heat rope, The moist orchid bark underneath helps the humidity when warm and the top layer stays dry. This is my trial and error fix.

 

[Whayla]

Not a problem, as long as we are both learning and gaining the information we need to keep our babies happy and healthy.

Since fungus is so easily spread, would it be advised to deep clean my tortoise table? Last time this problem happened I did end up cleaning out all of Tortuga's substrate and keeping her in a dry environment for two weeks before allowing her to re-enter her home. I still applied treatment at this time.
Should I remove all substrate again, and potentially deep clean the table for added relief?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I have no experience in that, but it couldn't hurt and makes good sense. In my case I'd have to re-sod my whole yard.......

 

[Whayla]

Just to inform and update.

I ended up cleaning out the tortoise table and playing around with my options. I found a HUGE bag of organic 100% natural peat moss for a killer deal, so I took it as a sign to try it out. I did just a slight layer of cypress mulch (the rest of what I had from previous) and a good layer of peat moss on top of that. Its about an 80/20 ratio. I have been trying not to mist my soil "wet," but instead I poor a slight amount in certain areas, like in a corner by the UVB or ceramic heater. I still love a slight mist now and again for a humidity bump, and she enjoys the shower as well.
So far, I have really liked the mixture of substrate, since the chips allow for airflow and the the peat moss locks in humidity underneath while maintaining a perfect dry but moist top layer.
I agree that it's best to find what works for you and your animals.

As for Tortuga,
I have been treating her each morning. I did not use Betadine this time around, but have been cleansing with a diluted chlothexidine solution and treating with a clotrimazole anti fungal cream. Unlike last time shell rot plagued, I have been keeping Tortuga on paper towels in a container located under her light to allow the medication to dry. This step has improved the condition immensely, and Toot seems to be healing nicely. I will continue treatment until her shell is fully restored, which I know can take months and even years in horrible cases. The earlier it's caught, the better.

I hope this information helps someone else out there and thanks to the responses to my questions.

 

[lisa127]

I use 100% organic peat moss for my box turtles. I love it. The smaller one is in a 50 gallon Rubbermaid tub and the larger one has a ten square foot enclosure. For ten bucks I fill up both enclosures with plenty of substrate for burrowing. You can't beat that! And unlike most people here, I hate coco fibre. So this works for me!

 

[Randi]

My tortoise was rescued after being in sloppy conditions. She was in a five gallon tank with soaked soil, and that was since December. I got her in July. The fungus is gone but there are dents left. She was 48 grams and now sits at 54.

I use cypress mulch and I keep it quite dry. I also live where no matter how many times you mist, it will never be enough. I make up for it in baths. She has a large water dish to lay in. She also has a moist mossy side that I mist every second day.

I used Betadine scrubs the first two days and then Chlorhexidine Gluconate 2% that was diluted to scrub her shell for a week. I would apply a small amount of athletes foot cream and allow her to dry.

Pics of the first day and as of the other day.
Hope to have helped. This is my first tortoise so I'm not an expert but it worked for me.