What type of tortoise suits me best?

SeanH.

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Hi everyone,

I've spent countless hours researching all these different tortoise types and I just can't seem to figure out which would be best suited for the care I can give them...

It's important to me that the tortoise is very sturdy, stays around 10 inches or under and doesn't hibernate.

I live in Germany, where it gets fairly cold. Also I have no yard or balcony so indoors is the only place i'll be able to keep the little one.

I've had my eye on cherry heads but they're extremely difficult to find in Germany. I've been looking at Indian stars as well, but I just get the impression, that more often than not they end up dying for no good reason and I can hardly find any pictures of adult stars on here. Egyptians also seem very hard to keep...

I just want something that won't die on me if I give it proper care.

I've been getting some equipment already. I have a uvb tube and the fixture for it, as well as the lucky reptile bright sun mvb set, a ceramic heat emitter and a temp gun.

I've been thinking about getting this type of enclosure. It's a closed chamber that makes it easy the fix up all the lighting inside. I've just never seen anyone use one of these on here. The size would be 4x2 for the beginning. What do you guys think about it?

http://terrarium-discounter.de/Terr...rarium-mit-Seitenbelueftung-120x60x60-cm.html

I was also thinking about installing a fogger conected to a thermo-/ hygrostat to keep temps and heat steady and running all by itself.

I'd really appreciate opinions and suggestions. Thanks in advance!
 

Yvonne G

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4'x2' would be ok for a younger tortoise but a bit too small for an adult.

Have you considered a box turtle? They can be great fun and get very people oriented. Also they are very forgiving of the poor care they get while their keeper is learning the ropes.

I think you may have overdone it a bit on the lights. If you decide on a box turtle or forest species of tortoise you can use the tube UVB, but if you get something like a russian, leopard or Hermanni, you can use the MVB, but I don't think you need both.

Before you buy any more equipment, be sure to read the Beginner Mistakes thread that Tidgy's Dad linked for you on your other thread.
 

crimson_lotus

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If I chose my species of tortoise, I'd go for a Russian due to my cold New England climate, their "small" adult size, ability to stand more of a range of temperatures than a Redfoot, and their ability to brumate(hibernate). I know you said you were looking for something that does not hibernate, and you don't have to force them to, you can overwinter them.

My Redfoot has to stay inside for the majority of the year, at LEAST 9 months because it's too cold for her outside, her temps are a constant 80 degrees with 99% humidity, I've basically upgraded everything in her enclosure in the past 3 years because she's grown 3x her original size since I've had her. If you get something acclimated to your climate, it makes things a lot easier.
 

ZEROPILOT

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You're doing the right thing.
Decide first what type you can correctly keep and set everything up first. Make sure that your temperatures and humidity are going to be correct and check it and adjust everything prior to getting the actual tortoise.
You will be so much better off than most of us when we were first starting with them!
 

TammyJ

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Hi, welcome and happy tort hunting!
 

SeanH.

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Thanks for all the replies, everyone! In this apartment 5x2 is probably the max size I could do, but we probably won't be staying here very long. I'm not too worried about being able to provide more space in the future. Right now I'm more worried about making it long enough for the Tortoise to need a larger enclosure.

I've checked out the Russian Tortoise and I really like it. I'm just worried about long term health if I don't hibernate it. I really can't provide a special fridge to do that right now and I'm pretty sure my wife would spent months sitting in front of the damn thing praying the little one will wake up in spring. Is it really safe to overwinter this species permanently or at least the first couple of years?

What do you guys think about the type of enclosure I'm planning? Would the closed chamber still work with the Russian if it's kept around 50-60% humidity? I just think it will be easier to keep the heat in...
 

tglazie

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The more I've worked with it, the more I feel that closed chambers are for tropical species. They can work for temperate torts, but I find a flux type situation is better, one in which you cover the enclosure at night to allow retention of evaporation from the substrate, then leave the enclosure uncovered during the day. Unfortunately, the trouble with cold is going to be a problem, so perhaps in your case, more of a closed chamber type system would be more suitable. It really depends upon how cold we're talking.

The space you're working with is the biggest problem I see here. That space is simply not going to be suitable for any adult sized tortoise, especially a Russian. Russians may be small, but I find they are incredibly energetic and thus require more space. This could be said of virtually all Testudo, that given their enormous amount of energy, I would personally find anything smaller than four by six to be a deal breaker, and even my temporary indoor enclosures for my marginated tortoises measure six by six (and my guys absolutely hate me for putting them into these cramped spaces, given their usual free reign in outdoor enclosures that are three to ten times that size). You say that these size constraints will not be in place forever, but how long will they be in place exactly? A year? Five years? Not to sound discouraging. Don't get me wrong, you are doing the right thing in considering these circumstances, rather than rushing into an impulse purchase of an animal. But perhaps it would be best to wait until you have more space. I always argue that it is best if a tortoise is able to spend at least part of the year in an enclosure outdoors, that there is no substitute for the ability to graze naturally and experience frolicking in the sun.

Regarding brumation, it is a controversial topic concerning whether or not to brumate. My advice is only do it when you're ready. Tortoises are long lived creatures, and though the jury is still out as to the long term negative effects, there are many long term keepers who have kept naturally brumating species without inducing brumation for decades. There is also no shortage of horror stories concerning brumation gone wrong. I tend to take a less dogmatic approach to this. Brumation is great for me. All of my adult animals get to spend the more unpleasant months of the year in a deep sleep, and all of my indoor graze gets a respite in which to regrow. This is also the time of year when I make modifications to the outdoor pens if necessary. The only way to do brumation is via fridge, in my opinion, though once again, this is a matter of some contention. I just know what has worked well for me, but keeping tortoises in South Texas is much different than keeping them in Germany. I would carefully consider the advice of those who have kept tortoises in your region. Make note of what these people say, and bounce it off us here on the forum. If you're serious about getting a tortoise, this will be one of many conversations you will be having on the forum.

T.G.
 
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SeanH.

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I'm confused... The baby russian tort care sheet here says a 4x2 closed chamber is perfectly fine for the first couple of years, also I've been checking out tons of indoor enclosures on the "Indoor enclosure" thread and a lot of them are significantly smaller and people have said i'd still be fine for babies. Why would it make sense to wait until I can build an 8x4 enclosure if I won't need one until later?

We'll be moving to a new city in about a year or two for job reasons and of course we'll make sure to have enough space for our tortoise there.

I find it really hard to correlate the info I get from German keepers with the Info I get here. People are really extreme here about never keeping tortoises indoors at all and always keeping them in large groups, therefore you'll get torn to bits if you ask for advice regarding indoor housing for ONE tortoise.
 

JoesMum

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Closed chambers are great for young testudo. They benefit from the higher humidity as they grow in the first few years.

This thread is excellent on the care of young Testudo and I recommend that you read it @SeanH.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

Sean is in Germany so I imagine that the it is most likely that any tort he gets will be under two years of age. You cannot buy wild caught torts in the European Union legally unlike in the USA.

All Testudo are hibernating species, but they don't have to be hibernated. It's not recommended when they're very small or in the first year of ownership in any case. To keep them awake you have the lights bright for 14 hours a day and keep the temperatures up.

Russians are very active and love to dig, burrow and climb. Greeks and Hermann's are not quite as active, but ultimately still need plenty of space as they near full size. They all benefit from outdoor space once they're bigger. My own Greek would be a nightmare kept indoors - he has the run of our garden.
 

enzot91

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Closed chambers are great for young testudo. They benefit from the higher humidity as they grow in the first few years.

This thread is excellent on the care of young Testudo and I recommend that you read it @SeanH.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

Sean is in Germany so I imagine that the it is most likely that any tort he gets will be under two years of age. You cannot buy wild caught torts in the European Union legally unlike in the USA.

All Testudo are hibernating species, but they don't have to be hibernated. It's not recommended when they're very small or in the first year of ownership in any case. To keep them awake you have the lights bright for 14 hours a day and keep the temperatures up.

Russians are very active and love to dig, burrow and climb. Greeks and Hermann's are not quite as active, but ultimately still need plenty of space as they near full size. They all benefit from outdoor space once they're bigger. My own Greek would be a nightmare kept indoors - he has the run of our garden.

Not exactly, Egyptian tortoises (Testudo kleinmanni) don't hibernate, nor do certain subspecies of Greek tortoise such as the Tunisian spur-thighed tortoise (Testudo graeca nabeulensis). Nonetheless, you're absolutely correct in saying that none of them absolutely have to in captivity! :)
 

crimson_lotus

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I'm confused... The baby russian tort care sheet here says a 4x2 closed chamber is perfectly fine for the first couple of years, also I've been checking out tons of indoor enclosures on the "Indoor enclosure" thread and a lot of them are significantly smaller and people have said i'd still be fine for babies. Why would it make sense to wait until I can build an 8x4 enclosure if I won't need one until later?

We'll be moving to a new city in about a year or two for job reasons and of course we'll make sure to have enough space for our tortoise there.

I find it really hard to correlate the info I get from German keepers with the Info I get here. People are really extreme here about never keeping tortoises indoors at all and always keeping them in large groups, therefore you'll get torn to bits if you ask for advice regarding indoor housing for ONE tortoise.

You're absolutely right, a 4x2 is perfectly fine for the first few years. I built a 4x4 enclosure that I've had for about 3 years, and when I received Charlotte she was already about 8 inches/20cm. My already large tortoise is growing larger and I need to eventually build a larger one, but I started out smaller.

It's always nice to have the tortoises outdoors, but not absolutely necessary. I like seeing mine walk in the grass when its warm enough, and I see a boost in activity and curiosity which makes me think she likes it out there, but believe me she is indoors 95% of the time. I hardly have a backyard since moving. I won't rip you apart for basically doing what I do.

Russians are spunky, I think they do a lot better alone. I would not encourage a group or pairs.

50-60% humidity is on the high side, won't hurt as long as it stays warm. You could go to about 30-40% probably.
 

Tom

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A 2x4' will be fine for a baby of any species. How long it will last depends on a lot of factors. A russian (horsfield) can easily reach four inches in two years. Growth rates vary a lot and for a lot of reasons.

A closed chamber will make it easier to maintain whatever conditions you want for your baby.

Humidity for a baby Testudo should be in the 50-70% range, and offer a humid hide too.

I prefer to hibernate species that would hibernate in the wild, but it is not "necessary" to do so. To this day I have seen no one produce any evidence that lack of hibernation hurts them in any way. Not even anecdotal evidence.

Likewise, outdoor time is good, but not a "necessity" if the indoor enclosure is done right.

I've raised a lot of babies and none of them die. Follow this care info, and you'll have a healthy tortoise for years to come:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
 

tglazie

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I'm confused... The baby russian tort care sheet here says a 4x2 closed chamber is perfectly fine for the first couple of years, also I've been checking out tons of indoor enclosures on the "Indoor enclosure" thread and a lot of them are significantly smaller and people have said i'd still be fine for babies. Why would it make sense to wait until I can build an 8x4 enclosure if I won't need one until later?

We'll be moving to a new city in about a year or two for job reasons and of course we'll make sure to have enough space for our tortoise there.

I find it really hard to correlate the info I get from German keepers with the Info I get here. People are really extreme here about never keeping tortoises indoors at all and always keeping them in large groups, therefore you'll get torn to bits if you ask for advice regarding indoor housing for ONE tortoise.

For a baby, yes, this enclosure is fine. Me personally, I tend to go larger at three by six, but that is for a group of babies freshly hatched, not a single hatchling, so I figure that should be fine. JoesMum made a good point that I didn't take into account, and that is that the Russian tort you would be likely to come across would be a youngster, not a wild caught adult. Forgive me. I live in the US, and I'm accustomed to offering advice to folks concerning wild caught adults.

Also, I don't know who you've been hearing concerning keeping a large group of tortoises as opposed to a single tortoise, but I am not the sort to advocate this. As a matter of fact, I am one of the few people on the forum who is a strict proponent of a one tortoise/one enclosure policy. I violate this policy with clutch mates, but even with hatchlings, I prepare separate facilities for each just in case. It was definitely not my intention to cause any confusion (quite the opposite, I assure you), but I apologize if this was the end result. I do sympathize with you regarding the mean commenters. As someone who has been keeping tortoises for decades, I often forget how overwhelming all this info is to newcomers, and mannerless know it all trolls who get a high off degrading others anonymously are of no help. All I can say regarding that is don't worry so much about correlating the info. Keep researching, keep reading, keep asking questions. Once you're comfortable with your level of knowledge, set up your habitat, get your tortoise, and realize that you know nothing, then come back and ask more questions, do more reading, and do more research. This is one of those hobbies that can stick with you for your entire life. I've had my highs and lows, and some of my beasts, like my Greek tortoise Graecus who has been with me since I was in elementary school, have survived the most ignorant, wrong headed version of myself to the relatively experienced person I've become. I can only imagine how things will change as my charges and I grow into later adulthood.

As for me being a purist about keeping tortoises outdoors, I'm afraid I'm guilty as charged in that regard, to some extent, anyway. Now, I don't dispute that one can successfully raise hatchlings indoors with the right setup. My hatchlings spend the majority of their time indoors and don't become outdoor animals until they've passed the four inch mark (so that they're large enough not to be carried off by hawks). However, I've found that once they reach adulthood or a size close to it, they do best with a good amount of outdoor time. Now, like I said, this depends upon your particular climate. South Texas is a great place to raise tortoises outdoors. We have native Texas tortoises running around south of where I live, the ground is well drained and calcium rich, and there is no shortage of sunny days and a fantastic shortage of frost, meaning that natural foods grow continuously throughout the year with minor seasonal variation (except in August when everything catches fire and desiccates in the relentless heat, but water can stave off most of that). As a result, I can pretty much keep adult marginated tortoises outdoors year round, with a little break in December and January for brumation. Your situation, obviously, is much different.

Ultimately, though, if you plan to upgrade the enclosure as your Russian grows, that's wonderful. Two by four should work for the first couple of years, I figure, depending upon rate of growth. Again, my aim isn't to discourage. As far as I'm concerned, the more tortoise keepers there are in the world, the better the world will be, given that the best humans are clearly the ones who keep tortoises, no question. Generally speaking, whenever I meet people, if I discover they keep tortoises, there is this instant rapport, one that can bridge any divide.

T.G.
 

SeanH.

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Thanks for all the input! I've been checking out different enclosure types and planning my setup. My plan is to get everything in advance and have it running for a while before I get the tortoise just to make sure I can adjust everything as needed until all temps and the humidity are in a good range constantly. I don't want to start adjusting and changing stuff with the tortoise already here. I don't want to stress it by changing its environment...

I've been doing some more reading and I guess I'm getting a little scared off again by all the sudden deaths people have encountered. So far I thought that if you get over the first year or so you're kind of out of the woods, but then there's all sorts of people on the internet who've had their tortoise for over a dacade and suddenly found their pet dead in the morning. I know that can happen with all kinds of pets. I adopted my first dog from a spanish shelter and then I lost him before he even turned a year old due to kidney failure. But I also know it's not the norm for that to happen.

You guys have been keeping tortoises for ever and you seem to all have several ones... Whats your best guess on early mortality rates, when prper care is given? Sometimes I get the feeling people keep tortoises like they keep fish, you know? If it dies, just flush it and get a new one and that would just be unbearable for us. We just get so attached to our pets and they're all part of the family. So I guess what I'm really trying to ask is: have you had a lot of your tortoises die on you? And: Will I have to be scared about checking on my tortoise every morning?
 

mike taylor

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Have you checked into water turtles ? They do way better indoors . Plus there's so many to choose from . Tortoises take up space .
 

SeanH.

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I have but I just don't like them very much. Besides... They need space as well and I just don't want a tank with that much water in my home.
 

mike taylor

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I gotcha ! Just an FYI . Red foots are protein eaters ,so their poop can be strong smelling . That 's why I had to build them a shed outside . How much room can you give a tortoise ? The more the better . It would be cool if you had a small yard I'd give you all kinds of opinions. I know there's guys on here that keep torts indoors year round . I personally don't . If you're going for smaller species try pancakes . You can build them floor space with stuff to climb and hide in.
 

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