What To Do About Pics Of Inappropriate Tortoise Practices?

[Alaskamike]

Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police.




I'd agree but then there are many that are happy when members with opposing opinions leave.

Let's see , the whys....
My tortoises have their own enclosures. The Aldabra & Sulcata have both recently been tested negative for parasites & infreqently take a lunch together.
I give my sulcata a strawberry 1x / month.
I have no concerns about the chorine in my pool, & rinse him well after
My dogs do not have access to any of my tortoises , except the 40 lb Sulcata. My dogs accept him in the yard like they do the cat and leave him alone - I'm willing to take the risk.
.... It is not ignoring sound advise , rather mitigating it with what know of my own care & supervision.
The problem Tom pointed out in the original post is valid still. Warnings are a good idea. Informed choices are often the best choices. But it's still a choice.
Most of us have no where near the experience of the most knowledgable here. And completely new keepers have no experience at all to inform choices.
As far as conflicts, they are inevitable and good for thought. I wish more people would view disagreement as healthy and supply justification for contrary thoughts. Some of the best education I've received has been engaging in this process.

Total agreement is highly overrated.

 

[bouaboua]

I don't care what anyone says here in this thread. I'm going to continue to advise NEW tortoise-keepers against mixing species, allowing the tortoise free roaming throughout the house, letting the dog be with the tortoise, etc. NEW tortoise keepers don't have the experience to have thought these practices through.

More experienced keepers, like, for instance, Baoh and -E.J. have years of tortoise-keeping under their belts. They don't just arbitrarily buy a new tortoise and dump it in with the old tortoises. It might even be unconscious thought, but they weigh the experience then decide to do it or not. A more experienced keeper probably knows his animals have been de-wormed, or that they've lived on his property for a length of time and aren't harboring any disease, etc.

But a new keeper has none of this knowledge and it's our job to help them gain it.

I think I will do the same. I will continue to offer my sandwich.

 

[N2TORTS]

Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.

Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.

Yes, I KNOW they're all the same species, and I know the definition "species." My question is WHY aren't they all different species? The ancestors of all the purebreds were all isolated from each other and forced to evolve by humans….Species is just a conceptual term, that's really rather arbitrary. We use it because it's useful and convenient to categorize organisms. There's no perfect definition of what a species is; the "interbreeding" definition suggested by Mayr is now used less and less since so many different species can interbreed, despite remaining in isolation from each other.
There is complete legitimacy in arguments that certain dog species should be reclassified as separate species (for starters, it's obvious that a Great Dane can't really reproduce easily with a Chihuahua).
Other factors or shall I say and more related to the topic …certain dogs are GREATLY susceptible to certain diseases or inherited health problems, more so than their “same species counterpartners”....WHY?

Just some examples are ….

Atrial septal defect* is a hole in the division between the heart atria (upper chambers of the heart). It is an uncommon abnormality in dogs. Most are not clinically significant, but large defects can cause right heart failure and exercise intolerance. Standard Poodles are the most common breed diagnosed with ASD in the USA.

Pulmonic stenosis* is a congenital heart disease in dogs characterized by right ventricular outflow tract obstruction. Most commonly the narrowing occurs at the pulmonary valve but it can also occur below the valve (subvalvular) or above the valve (supravalvular). The most commonly affected breeds include terriers, Bulldogs, Miniature Schnauzers, Chihuahuas, Samoyeds, Beagles, Keeshonds, Mastiffs, and Bullmastiffs. Signs may include exercise intolerance, but often there is only a heart murmur

Tetra-logy of Fallot* is a congenital heart defect in dogs that includes four separate defects: pulmonic stenosis, a ventricular septal defect, right ventricular hypertrophy, and an overriding aorta. Keeshonds and Bulldogs are predisposed. Signs include cyanosis and exercise intolerance. Polycythemia is often present and, if severe, needs to be controlled with phlebotomy or drugs to suppress red blood cell production.[49]

Patent ductus arteriosus* is one of the most common congenital heart defect in dogs around the world. It is inherited in toy and miniature Poodles, and seen commonly in German Shepherds, Pomeranians, Bichon Frises, and Malteses. Signs include a continuous heart murmur, bounding (strong) femoral pulse, tachypnea (increased breathing rate), dyspnea (labored breathing), and exercise intolerance

Subvalvular Aortic stenosis* (Subaortic stenosis; SAS) is a congenital disease in dogs characterized by left ventricular outflow tract obstruction by a discrete ring or tunnel of fibrous tissue immediately below the aortic valve. It is inherited in Newfoundlands, and also found in Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, Boxers, Bulldogs, German Shepherd Dogs, and Samoyeds. Signs include a left basilar systolic heart murmur, weak femoral pulse, and fainting and exercise intolerance. Dogs with severe SAS are predisposed to dying suddenly

Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome* is an autosomal recessive disease which results in mature neutrophils being unable to migrate from the bone marrow into the blood. Affected pups suffer from chronic infections and failure to thrive. Other symptoms can include stunted growth and a ferret like facial appearance.[53] The disease is common in Border collies.

Abbott, Jonathan A. (2000). Small Animal Cardiology Secrets (1st ed.). Hanley & Belfus, Inc. ISBN1-56053-352-8.


I’m not advocating keeping different species together, more so because of environmental and diet requirements- rather than transmitting or spreading disease. This can hold very true with mixing different species or even the same species “wild caught” animals….but wondering if CB F3’s down the line and years later of two different species would hold true to so much of the panic of “disease spreading’.

 

[Careym13]

Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care.
Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth. View attachment 151404

Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.
I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon.
And now I await your diplomatic replies

I think you make some interesting points. It's good to see some "sideliners" jumping in on this thread. My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out?

I think different standards of care are a good thing, we can all learn from different methods of tortoise keeping. I can't speak for every single person on this forum, but most of us try to be open-minded and if you keep your tortoise in a different manner than most of us yet have good results, I'd actually like to see you share that info so others can benefit. If you can justify, explain, back-up, etc. what your methods are...why not share?

 

[Alaskamike]

@N2TORTS
In fairness the examples you site are congenital defects - not disease transmission or parasitic resistance & susceptibility. But ....

I spent 20 yrs in Alaska and did some work out in the "Bush" with native people. The horrific plagues of flu, pneumonia, and several other diseases , brought to them courtesy of Europeans, almost wiped out entire cultures. They had little resistance to new pathogens. And they were all humans.

You are certainly correct that the term " species" has come under some revision & valid question in the Biological Community. But the evolutionary process to develop the individual biology of Redfoot and the Aldabra occurred over 100'rds of 1000'ds of years , Unlike the canine with at most a 30k history of domestication.

Not being argumentative here , just throwing in some thought.

 

[wellington]

I think you make some interesting points. It's good to see some "sideliners" jumping in on this thread. My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out?

I think different standards of care are a good thing, we can all learn from different methods of tortoise keeping. I can't speak for every single person on this forum, but most of us try to be open-minded and if you keep your tortoise in a different manner than most of us yet have good results, I'd actually like to see you share that info so others can benefit. If you can justify, explain, back-up, etc. what your methods are...why not share?

This is almost what I wanted to say. The last part. Share what you do, but include where you live too. Try not to leave out any important details. Someone living in humid Florida and doesn't have to use a lot of artificial drying heat, can probably get away with no extra humidity, etc. However, someone living in AZ or any other hot and dry area, well their torts probably wouldn't turn out so smooth, even if they didn't use artificial heating/lights.
I'm sure everyone would love to find an easier way without so much artificial heat/lights/humidity.
Start a thread and share your details please. Even if everyone can't benefit from what you do, members that live in the same kind of climate as you could.
The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.

 

[SteveW]

Total agreement is highly overrated.

I totally agree

 

[N2TORTS]

I stayed away from the thread for a few days ....but hey another log on the fire never hurts...
How we all learn right?......Now I wish my own Doctors would have their own forum....

 

[SteveW]

My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out?
?

It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.

 

[Prairie Mom]

; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth. View attachment 151404
Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.

A lot of other keepers don't use the same practices that you mentioned and I have seen others that use aquariums too. I hear what you're saying and am glad that you decided to speak up. I hope you and other "sideliners" will speak up more often. I like hearing more points of view

 

[SteveW]

I'm sure everyone would love to find an easier way without so much artificial heat/lights/humidity.
Start a thread and share your details please. Even if everyone can't benefit from what you do, members that live in the same kind of climate as you could.
The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.

I can't help you with easy; I have 2-4 hygrometers per enclosure and 3 different lights plus CHE. Also in California so no humidity benefit there. I'll start my own thread and see how it goes. My apologies to the OP for the unintended hijacking.

 

[SteveW]

The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.

Sorry, one more thing; who is the 'we' to which you refer? How much of the knowledge you reference is from your own experience, how much repeated? If it's repeated (and I don't know if this is the case,) then doesn't accuracy require you to state that?
One more one more thing; your last statement seems to indicate the lack of pyramiding is due to the breeders efforts rather than mine. I would counter than anyone posting a 'I have a 6 month old leopard' thread would receive the requisite 20 'read Toms threads' replies. It seems as though you are already building a case against different information before it's even presented.

The relevance to this thread isn't my approach (which isn't that different in net) it's that the wave of group consensus doesn't further discussion, doesn't encourage creativity, and doesn't inspire outsiders/interlopers/crackpots like myself to be involved.
Ok, now no more high jacking

 

[Careym13]

It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.

I can understand that point of view, as I spent many years as a strict vegetarian. However, if I were to engage in a public forum that routinely discussed the different styles, methods, etc. of vegetarianism (even as observer)...I would fully expect to have people with differing opinions offer me or others info or suggestions as to my eating habits or those of others. I certainly wouldn't take things personally, find them annoying or find them presumptuous. Especially not if it were merely because numerous members suggested I read a helpful thread.

People often come to TFO to learn and help others learn. Isn't that the point after all? How can that be accomplished if members must walk on egg shells and count the number of times a suggestion was made in one specific thread as to not duplicate info at the risk of offending the OP?

Many people here take time out of their lives to jump on the forum to try to contribute as their day allows. Sometimes that leads to a duplication of information. I'm sorry you feel the way you do and I hope for others they can see that most of us are only trying to help...nothing more.

 

[SteveW]

Apparently that came across more boorish than intended. My apologies. Perhaps I just really need a beer and hamburger

 

[Careym13]

Apparently that came across more boorish than intended. My apologies. Perhaps I just really need a beer and hamburger

Well, as we speak, I am out cooking on the grill...not vegetables either.

 

[wellington]

Sorry, one more thing; who is the 'we' to which you refer? How much of the knowledge you reference is from your own experience, how much repeated? If it's repeated (and I don't know if this is the case,) then doesn't accuracy require you to state that?
One more one more thing; your last statement seems to indicate the lack of pyramiding is due to the breeders efforts rather than mine. I would counter than anyone posting a 'I have a 6 month old leopard' thread would receive the requisite 20 'read Toms threads' replies. It seems as though you are already building a case against different information before it's even presented.

The relevance to this thread isn't my approach (which isn't that different in net) it's that the wave of group consensus doesn't further discussion, doesn't encourage creativity, and doesn't inspire outsiders/interlopers/crackpots like myself to be involved.
Ok, now no more high jacking

You totally misunderstood my last statement. Only stating that if a breeder hatches and keeps his torts hot and dry, that usually or at least sometimes promotes pyramiding no matter what you do to prevent it. Yes, I have experience with my first leopard on this.
The only experience I have is with my own leopards, no breeding yet, well at least nothing hatched yet and some when I was much younger with turtles. I'm not stupid though and can read and learn just like everyone else has in the beginning of their tortoise years. Not one single person has ever been born with the knowledge they have now. Everyone has learned it, some has then been able to experience it, some sooner then later. I pass on the info that I have learned from here FROM A FEW MEMBERS I TRUST AND SHARES THEIR PROOF OF WHAT THEY SAY, common sense, my vet tech years, and all the other years I was in some kind of dog work. I take owning animals very seriously, so I do my home work. I spend lots of money on my animals, so yes, I try to learn everything I can to do it right! The threads (Toms) are at the bottom of every post I make. Some of it I unfortunately found out too late, all of it I pass on.
I asked for you to,share your info because it would be great to,learn what you have done. It is important though to know your location. If you want to argue, I'm not going to bite.
Btw, you have how much experience yourself? One leopard or two. Maybe your to argumentive to help others.

 

[wellington]

I stayed away from the thread for a few days ....but hey another log on the fire never hurts...
How we all learn right?......Now I wish my own Doctors would have their own forum....

You would think so, but some people think they were born with tort knowledge and experience. They must be special
Then again they tell us nothing of their experience, are a member for a very short time, but yet, we should worship every word they say.
I need a vacation.

 

[wellington]

It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.

Those are people that know you. You've only been here a few months, don't tell us much, but we are suppose to know you k ow what your doing. A post on a forum is not unsolicited advice. You put it out there for people to comment on. If your doing something very dangerous to any animal, I will tell you so and don't care if your feelings were hurt or not. It's not about you or and ego, it's only, at least from me, the animal.

 

[Careym13]

Those are people that know you. You've only been here a few months, don't tell us much, but we are suppose to know you k ow what your doing. A post on a forum is not unsolicited advice. You put it out there for people to comment on. If your doing something very dangerous to any animal, I will tell you so and don't care if your feelings were hurt or not. It's not about you or and ego, it's only, at least from me, the animal.

I agree. As I stated earlier in this thread, I'd rather have someone upset with me than have their animal be injured or dead.

 

[N2TORTS]

BTW Mr. Tom and Yvonne .....I have the upmost respect for your knowledge on all animals regardless if torti'......just thought I would bring some questions into the pic and see some other folks answer (Good Job Mike). For the OP sorry for the Hijack ....and my 2-cents. For myself I go to great extents for separation of my own "species of torts", as well as the gene quality within the same species....and I keep very good records. Plus I have proof of the babies I produce, and some out comes years later. My Hypo project for instance did not happen overnight - breeding torts for genetic quality Ex: Colors does not happen at random (Alegra's beautiful cherries for instance- result of outstanding parents and tortoise keeping for them to produce) and they sure don't breed like rats. My first tortoise owned was 1971....I'm no spring chicken... and lucky enough to have some ties with the San Diego Zoo that helped along the way.
Be happy~ Cheers!