What species to get for 10 sq ft tortoise table

[Tortobsessed]

A while ago I built a tortoise table with dimensions of 4' x 2.5', a total of 10 square feet, I don't have substrate or anything ready yet. When I add substrate I will add lots of cover, hides, and decorations. I originally built it for egyptian tortoises but decided that wouldn't be the best idea because of their high cost and not-beginner care. I would like to house more than one together (I could also divide the table if you think it would still be big enough) but I read that pairs aren't good ideas. Breeding in the future is a possibility I will consider. The species I am deciding on are Russians, Pancakes, or Egyptians (if you think it's possible for a beginner). Which one would you recommend or are there any other species you think would work well? I read that russians need a much larger enclosure so those might not be great either.

 

[wellington]

Nothing but a single hatchling can live in that small area and until 6 months to maybe a year.
If you can't do bigger then that, when they are 6 months to a year, then forget getting a tortoise.

 

[Tortobsessed]

I might be able to get a larger enclosure (depending how big it would be). Not even a single pancake tortoise could live in that size?

 

[Tortobsessed]

What size enclosures?

What size enclosures (both outdoor/summer and indoor/winter) enclosure is best for 2-3 pancake torts? I don't have any yet, but...:-P

www.tortoiseforum.org

Does post #5 apply here?
I could easily build multiple level (and buried) hides and cover in addition to time outside the enclosure (if that even is beneficial).

 

[wellington]

What size enclosures?

What size enclosures (both outdoor/summer and indoor/winter) enclosure is best for 2-3 pancake torts? I don't have any yet, but...:-P

www.tortoiseforum.org

Does post #5 apply here?
I could easily build multiple level (and buried) hides and cover in addition to time outside the enclosure (if that even is beneficial).

Time outside the enclosure is only good if it's an outside enclosure, not roaming the floors of your house.
If you can build up then I think it would be okay for one or two pancake. Not sure how well they do in pairs though. So build a bit bigger and do three or stay with what you have, adding some height and do one.

 

[Tortobsessed]

I could likely figure out a way to have a small outdoor temporary pen or collapsable enclosure. What is the reasoning behind not having pairs? Does it only apply to male and female pairs or also to 2 females (I'm assuming 2 males would fight)? Are males territorial at all? If I were to start with one tortoise with the possibility of getting more in the future would it matter what sex I start with (maybe female so a male wouldn't try to breed an underage/underweight female)? I'm used to the gecko hobby and I'm on reptile (mainly snakes and geckos) forums so tortoises are foreign to me.

 

[Lyn W]

I could likely figure out a way to have a small outdoor temporary pen or collapsable enclosure. What is the reasoning behind not having pairs? Does it only apply to male and female pairs or also to 2 females (I'm assuming 2 males would fight)? Are males territorial at all? If I were to start with one tortoise with the possibility of getting more in the future would it matter what sex I start with (maybe female so a male wouldn't try to breed an underage/underweight female)? I'm used to the gecko hobby and I'm on reptile (mainly snakes and geckos) forums so tortoises are foreign to me.

Torts of most species (any sex or siblings) should never be kept in pairs because one becomes dominant and will bully the other. They are solitary and territorial creatures. Starts with staring, following nudging hogging food and best basking spots and gradually become more aggressive with barging and biting, Torts are solitary and territorial creatures and the stress of sharing can cause illness. A male will constantly harass a female to mate and make her life miserable.
Groups with the right gender mix sometimes work but only if you have a massive space where they can avoid each other.
4 x 8 feet is the minimum space for just one of the smaller species, so the more torts you have the more space you need. Best to stick to one if you aren't familiar with tortoise keeping and if don't have space to make anything much bigger for a group.

There are good caresheets for most species so read those and see which species will best suit your circumstances.

 

[Tortobsessed]

Good to know, I'll likely stick with only getting one then (at least for this setup). Is a pancake tortoise the only species I would be limited to?

 

[wellington]

Good to know, I'll likely stick with only getting one then (at least for this setup). Is a pancake tortoise the only species I would be limited to?

Yes of those available. I believe there are one or two others that stay small but they are not available. Even if they were, I think they need more space.

 

[Tortobsessed]

@wellington and @Lyn W, thank you for all of your help. It might be awhile before I get a tortoise but I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

 

[Lyn W]

@wellington and @Lyn W, thank you for all of your help. It might be awhile before I get a tortoise but I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

Read the caresheets and ask as many questions as you like. It's always better to have everything set up correctly and as much knowledge as possible before you get your tort . Good luck.

 

[Tom]

Good to know, I'll likely stick with only getting one then (at least for this setup). Is a pancake tortoise the only species I would be limited to?

A pancake tortoise needs a large closed chamber with high humidity if you don't want it to pyramid. Same care as a baby sulcata or leopard:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tortobsessed]

A pancake tortoise needs a large closed chamber with high humidity if you don't want it to pyramid. Same care as a baby sulcata or leopard:

I just had a chance to read that. That is one of the most helpful things I've ever read on the care of them, thank you. Is humidity most important only during the younger stage? I could likely use a large tub for when it was younger and then move it into the table. It's usually around 60% humidity where I'm at so I could easily keep humidity high (I can also mist and soak daily). I can add multiple humid hides, shallow dishes, live plants (edible of course), contained boxes of moss/water (making sure the tortoise can't get to them), etc. If it won't work even with all of that I can get rid of the table if I need to. I'm not going to sacrifice the health of a tortoise for my ease of keeping (but I can't afford a closed enclosure so that would mean I won't get a tortoise).

 

[Tom]

I just had a chance to read that. That is one of the most helpful things I've ever read on the care of them, thank you. Is humidity most important only during the younger stage? I could likely use a large tub for when it was younger and then move it into the table. It's usually around 60% humidity where I'm at so I could easily keep humidity high (I can also mist and soak daily). I can add multiple humid hides, shallow dishes, live plants (edible of course), contained boxes of moss/water (making sure the tortoise can't get to them), etc. If it won't work even with all of that I can get rid of the table if I need to. I'm not going to sacrifice the health of a tortoise for my ease of keeping (but I can't afford a closed enclosure so that would mean I won't get a tortoise).

60% humidity in your area will be much lower in an enclosure with electrically generated heat.

Misting does very little to keep humidity up in a dry room with electric heat.

Moss should never be used with tortoises. Not either type of moss.

Making a closed chamber is not much more difficult or expensive than making an open table. Trying to heat and humidify an open table is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof on it. You can't fight physics.

To be blunt, but not mean: If you can't afford a closed chamber, how will you buy all the necessary heating and lighting, food, vet care, substrate, and all else that a tortoise needs. Or purchase a healthy CB tortoise? Closed chambers don't cost much more than other enclosures. I hope we can help you find solutions that work within your budget. You don't have to buy the most expensive fancy stuff, but it does take some money to get a proper set up going. I don't want to shut you down. I want to help you figure out if keeping a tortoise is feasible for you at this stage in your life.

 

[zovick]

Good to know, I'll likely stick with only getting one then (at least for this setup). Is a pancake tortoise the only species I would be limited to?

The Western Hermann's Tortoise would be another possible choice for a small area. The three smallest ones are probably those from the Calabrian, the Mallorcan, and the Menorcan locales. They do very well in captivity. They are less $$ than Egyptian Tortoises and much easier to raise and keep, but they are not overly cheap, so be prepared.

Chris Leone's web site can fill you in on the details of their care as well as their relative sizes. Here is a link to it:

Home | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

 

[Tortobsessed]

60% humidity in your area will be much lower in an enclosure with electrically generated heat.

Even though the basking spot doesn't cover the entire area? I would think that part of the enclosure would still have high humidity.

Moss should never be used with tortoises. Not either type of moss.

Is this due to the risk of impaction?

Making a closed chamber is not much more difficult or expensive than making an open table. Trying to heat and humidify an open table is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof on it. You can't fight physics.

To be blunt, but not mean: If you can't afford a closed chamber, how will you buy all the necessary heating and lighting, food, vet care, substrate, and all else that a tortoise needs. Or purchase a healthy CB tortoise? Closed chambers don't cost much more than other enclosures. I hope we can help you find solutions that work within your budget. You don't have to buy the most expensive fancy stuff, but it does take some money to get a proper set up going. I don't want to shut you down. I want to help you figure out if keeping a tortoise is feasible for you at this stage in your life.

I see what you're saying. I thought a new closed enclosure would cost over $500, I already have extra heating, lighting, food (for feeder colonies; I would likely grow my own plants for a tortoise), and money saved for vets from my old gecko setups (currently they have heat tape in a rack). The new bulbs would likely cost less than $100 a year at the most. Substrate is relatively cheap if bought in large bags. For setting up the enclosure I usually set enclosures up with substrate and hides ready to go months before I get the animal to make sure temperatures and humidity are perfect and I can afford a quality animal.
I also wouldn't be buying anything now due to the fact that my priority is making sure I have space for my leopard and crested geckos (buying racks for next years breeding and when the younger ones get bigger).

The Western Hermann's Tortoise would be another possible choice for a small area. The three smallest ones are probably those from the Calabrian, the Mallorcan, and the Menorcan locales. They do very well in captivity. They are less $$ than Egyptian Tortoises and much easier to raise and keep, but they are not overly cheap, so be prepared.

Chris Leone's web site can fill you in on the details of their care as well as their relative sizes. Here is a link to it:

Home | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into them.

 

[Tortobsessed]

The Western Hermann's Tortoise would be another possible choice for a small area. The three smallest ones are probably those from the Calabrian, the Mallorcan, and the Menorcan locales. They do very well in captivity. They are less $$ than Egyptian Tortoises and much easier to raise and keep, but they are not overly cheap, so be prepared.

Chris Leone's web site can fill you in on the details of their care as well as their relative sizes. Here is a link to it:

Home | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

According to that website an 8x4 tortoise table can house a trio. Even with smaller locales and only one I don't think 4x2.5 is big enough. I think I might just need to buy larger enclosures to keep tortoises.

 

[zovick]

According to that website an 8x4 tortoise table can house a trio. Even with smaller locales and only one I don't think 4x2.5 is big enough. I think I might just need to buy larger enclosures to keep tortoises.

Personally, I think a 6' x 3' or thereabouts would be totally sufficient for a single Western Hermann's Tortoise. If you got a baby to raise up, the 4' x 2.5' size should be OK for a couple of years.

Just my opinion. I have raised about 50 W. Hermann's Tortoises, so have a fair amount of experience with them. If you are able to get a male, they are even smaller than the females.

 

[Tortobsessed]

Personally, I think a 6' x 3' or thereabouts would be totally sufficient for a single Western Hermann's Tortoise. If you got a baby to raise up, the 4' x 2.5' size should be OK for a couple of years.

Just my opinion. I have raised about 50 W. Hermann's Tortoises, so have a fair amount of experience with them. If you are able to get a male, they are even smaller than the females.

A 6x2.5 is the largest enclosure I can fit in my current area. I also might move relatively soon (in the next few years or so) so I don't want to get any large enclosures that might not fit in the next reptile room. I'm hoping in the next space I can get a stack of enclosures for tortoises.

 

[Tom]

Even though the basking spot doesn't cover the entire area? I would think that part of the enclosure would still have high humidity.

Is this due to the risk of impaction?

I see what you're saying. I thought a new closed enclosure would cost over $500, I already have extra heating, lighting, food (for feeder colonies; I would likely grow my own plants for a tortoise), and money saved for vets from my old gecko setups (currently they have heat tape in a rack). The new bulbs would likely cost less than $100 a year at the most. Substrate is relatively cheap if bought in large bags. For setting up the enclosure I usually set enclosures up with substrate and hides ready to go months before I get the animal to make sure temperatures and humidity are perfect and I can afford a quality animal.
I also wouldn't be buying anything now due to the fact that my priority is making sure I have space for my leopard and crested geckos (buying racks for next years breeding and when the younger ones get bigger).

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into them.

An open top allows all the heat and humidity to escape up and into the room. See the house with no roof analogy. The temp and humidity in the enclosure will match the temp and humidity in the room, except the enclosure will be much drier since the heat lamps and CHEs will be drying everything out.

They eat the long fibered sphagnum moss and its an impaction hazard. The dirt-like sphagnum moss can burn their plastron.