what should i do about ayana?

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exoticsdr

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maggie3fan said:
As for adding "a little bit of carrot baby food" to the water is wrong. Put her in a small container and add the whole jar of baby food.
I was thinking about yogurt to add to her gut flora. What do you think about that? I would try Mazuri and continue to feed cactus. What makes you think she doesn't see so well?

I regularly add yogurt to the diets of birds (parrots) and herbivores (mammalian and reptilian) that come to me sick, in my estimation, it can only help, though the poo works better (it all ends up being about what the client is willing to put up with....yogurt or poo, hmmmmm choices, choices). I have used it (POO) in transitioning kangaroo joeys from milk to solid food several times with great results. PeanutER mentioned a product call Oxbow Critical Care in another thread.....GREAT PRODUCT. I believe this product has single handedly saved many of my patients, the palateability is fantastic...can be sprinkled dry on moist veggies or made into a paste or grewl depending on the species being fed.
 

moswen

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lol len! i guess it wouldn't hurt, just pm me the shipping costs! i still have your address.

maggie, remember you and yvonne told me she may be blind bc she was just nipping at the food infront of her, and she wasn't able to reach it? and i was able to touch her right eyeball with my finger coming in very slowly. i think she has sight in her left eye though. the whole jar in some water, or just the jar? i've only been adding a spoonfull to her bath. i've fed her a spoon of straight baby carrots the second day, but it's been watered down since then.

you think yogurt would be okay to feed her? i always have plain yogurt bc i like my yogurt with honey, i'm assuming i should give her the plain stuff?
 

Yvonne G

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I always assumed that tortoises can't process dairy products and thus I wouldn't feed yogurt to a tortoise. My opinion
 

exoticsdr

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emysemys said:
I always assumed that tortoises can't process dairy products and thus I wouldn't feed yogurt to a tortoise. My opinion

Generally, that is true, the nice thing is you don't need a lot and the beneficial bacteria far outweigh any problems that are going to arise from the dairy product as long as you don't over do it. Dysbiosis (lack of the bugs) can kill, so any that you can get into the system are going to be beneficial and when you supply lots of natural foods with the yogurt, the dairy is going to be diluted down. Like I said, I definitely prefer the poo but alot of clients won't fly like that... I know this crowd is up to anything, so poo away my friends.
 

moswen

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okay, good to have that cleared up! my husband is so worried about yana that he offered to go get organic plain yogurt, since i currently have greek strained plain orikos yogurt... he's so sweet. he'd be unhappy if i called him right now and told him to come back though lol!

this is all really great advice and i'm so happy to recieve it all, thank you all so very much!!
 

PeanutbuttER

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exoticsdr said:
I know this crowd is up to anything, so poo away my friends.

Well, that is certainly not something I expected to hear today... :p

So, now this has got me thinking. I have a hatchling RF who since birth has never been around adults nor their poo, so should I take some poo from my older RF and "give" it to her? Does that defeat the purpose of the quarantine period (they're both past the quarantine period, but if I got another hatchling for instance should I give her some poo on day 1? Also, how does one offer poo to a tort? Put it in the food dish or just lay it wherever?

After thinking about it for a second I realize that I was dumb there and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of the quarantine period since you'd be taking poo from a known healthy animal you already own and giving it to the new one you're not sure of.
 

moswen

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PeanutbuttER said:
exoticsdr said:
I know this crowd is up to anything, so poo away my friends.

Well, that is certainly not something I expected to hear today... :p

So, now this has got me thinking. I have a hatchling RF who since birth has never been around adults nor their poo, so should I take some poo from my older RF and "give" it to her? Does that defeat the purpose of the quarantine period (they're both past the quarantine period, but if I got another hatchling for instance should I give her some poo on day 1? Also, how does one offer poo to a tort? Put it in the food dish or just lay it wherever?

After thinking about it for a second I realize that I was dumb there and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of the quarantine period since you'd be taking poo from a known healthy animal you already own and giving it to the new one you're not sure of.


haha! most of the time i believe baby torties get them from their mothers.
 

exoticsdr

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PeanutbuttER said:
exoticsdr said:
I know this crowd is up to anything, so poo away my friends.

Well, that is certainly not something I expected to hear today... :p

So, now this has got me thinking. I have a hatchling RF who since birth has never been around adults nor their poo, so should I take some poo from my older RF and "give" it to her? Does that defeat the purpose of the quarantine period (they're both past the quarantine period, but if I got another hatchling for instance should I give her some poo on day 1? Also, how does one offer poo to a tort? Put it in the food dish or just lay it wherever?

After thinking about it for a second I realize that I was dumb there and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of the quarantine period since you'd be taking poo from a known healthy animal you already own and giving it to the new one you're not sure of.

Yeah...I do that sometimes too...haha duh?!! Actually, I'm happy these days if I wake up knowing my own name...have a great one Peanut
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Can you go to your local vet and get a product called Critical Care? They make it for different species but you can get the kind for herbivores. You can take a tablespoonful and mix some warm water and make a slop. Then you can put it in a syringe and just squirt some into her mouth, let her swallow then continue to do that. You could gavage her too if you know how to do that. Otherwise just doing the syringe feeding would work. I had to feed Abcess Nose that way for 3 months before he started eating good on his own. It's a great product made especially for herbivores it has grass and other stuff they need. Anyhow, just an idea...
 

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I'll send you some sulcata poo! I've got it from 7 month olds, a three year old, a 10 year old and two 12 year olds. I've heard about the "gut seeding" thing, but never done it. I've done many fecals over the years and they have all come back negative. I don't think they need parasites to digest their food and thrive and, like Yvonne, I don't think dairy is a good idea for a tort. Just my opinion too.

I don't think hatchlings fail due to lack of eating poo or lack of parasites. None of mine have ever eaten poo and I have never lost a single one. I've raised dozens of several different species. I think "Hatchling Failure Syndrome" needs to be re-named "Your Breeder Kept Your Tortoise Too Dry For The First Few Weeks Of Its Life, Before You Got It Syndrome". I'm not a betting man, but I think time will prove me right on this one and I'm willing to bet a lot of money on it.

This all relates back to the study that Danny referenced that found chronic dehydration and the permanent, irreparable organ damage that results from it, as a contributing cause of pyramiding. I think that this is exactly what is going on with all the slow growers. This is exactly what happened with my three year old, Daisy. After two years of swamp living, she has finally grown enough NEW kidney and liver cells to begin to thrive and grow. She has been on a tremendous growth spurt for the last 6 months or so. She's gone from 424 grams on June 3rd to 1124 grams today. She barely grew at all for her first two years and she was kept very dry on pellets, with no water, and infrequent soaks for her first three months after hatching. When I got her at 12 weeks, she was horribly pyramided. Now she's all smooth with little nubbins in the middle of each scute, and VERY well hydrated.

If your little one is still alive after a year, then I think she will eventually pull through. The hydration is the key. Since their internal organs are compromised, it is critical to help keep them "flushed". I think eventually enough new cells will grow and she'll start to grow and thrive.
 

moswen

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but yana's not pyramided tom, she hasn't grown AT ALL, pyramided or otherwise. i don't think hatchling failure syndrome is the case here, or she would have already shut down.

i don't think the actual PARASITES are what keep torts alive, i think they help and they help break down food, but i think there is something that a parasite GIVES to a tortoise, some sort of fungus or flora or something... i don't know... something from the parasite's poo maybe, since we're talking about poo lol... i just think that a tortoise gets something from the parasites. that's why torts who have been de-wormed still live, because they've already gotten whatever it is the parasites give them, and that is still living in their intestines, even after they've been de-wormed.

yana was never wormed before i got her, so if she's never been de-wormed then she's never had worms so her mom never passed any on to her, bc her poop is parasite free, so she doesn't have whatever she needs in her intestines to help her survive. that's why she needs the parasite, to give her whatever it is she needs. this is just my theory though.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Yvonne and Tom...While we all know that normally dairy is not good for torts, you will please notice that exoticdr agreed with me about the yogurt...:p
 

scubatyler

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I have a very small leopard tort that was 36 grams when I got him. After I had him for a couple of weeks he stopped eating and started losing weight. his feces was light in color and gooey. I always soaked him daily and he would usually drink. After a week of not eating I took him to the vet and he showed me how to force feed him using a feeding needle and vegetable baby food. His weight continued to drop and he quit opening his eyes except for a few minutes after a long soak. I went back to the vet and he started him on antibiotics. since he was so small injections weren't really an option so I gave them orally. The correct dose was one drop of batryl from the smallest size of needle that the vet had. I first loaded the feeding needle with baby food then placed the drop of antibiotic on the ball at the end and sucked it up. The antibiotic and baby food was then squirted into his throat. This was done daily. After the third day he started to eat again on his own and after about 2 weeks his weight was back up to 36 grams so I stopped the antibiotic. he continued to eat and drink daily for about a week then he started eating less and his weight quickly dropped to 22 grams. I started the antibiotic again and his appetite increased again. I am still giving the antibiotic daily and his weight is back up to 32 grams. This time I am going to continue the antibiotic for much longer with hopes that he will stay well. I think the cause must be a bacterial infection of the digestive system that wasn't completely eliminated by the first round of antibiotics. examine your tort's feces and if it looks abnormal you could have the same problem as me and may need to use antibiotics. He tested negative for parasites and had a proper diet before he got sick. I know antibiotics are very hard on tortoises but if you are trying to fight off a bacterial infection it may be something to explore. As for now I am hoping my little guy makes it. I may also need to get some poo from a healthy leopard tort to inoculate him after the antibiotics are finished but I don't know anyone who has one around here. I hope this long post is helpful. If anyone has anything to add feel free.
 

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maggie3fan said:
Yvonne and Tom...While we all know that normally dairy is not good for torts, you will please notice that exoticdr agreed with me about the yogurt...:p

I noticed Maggie. I'm still just not comfortable with it. No offense to you or the doc. Maybe in time, I'll discover that my concerns are unjustified.

moswen said:
but yana's not pyramided tom, she hasn't grown AT ALL, pyramided or otherwise. i don't think hatchling failure syndrome is the case here, or she would have already shut down.

If there is no growth, there can't be any pyramiding either.

If they NEED these parasites, how come all of mine, of many species, over two and a half decades have all done well with negative fecals? I've had a few torts over the years with positive fecals and all of them were doing poorly. After worming, they all got better.

You might be right, but the symptoms point to chronic hatchling dehydration from my POV. I think we previously covered that she was, in fact, housed dry on dry pellets, didn't we? Anyhow, even if I'm wrong, I don't think there is any harm in "seeding" her intestinal tract. I just hope that something helps her and she starts growing for you.
 
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